“Why does it matter if people cling to myths for solace? Because real-world problems such as climate change can only be solved by real-world thinking. Like it or not, the harsh reality is that nature doesn’t exist to serve humanity, and turning to myths that put humans at the centre of creation only distract us from appropriate actions.”
I thought about these words of Lawrence Krauss in his column “World Lines” in New Scientist when I read today’s papers reporting that more than 70 000 people turned up at Loftus Versfeld to hear the potato faith-healer Angus Buchan solving all the world’s – and especially South Africa’s – problems.
Why does it indeed matter if 71 128 believers without baloney detectors – including the rugby Springbok Jaco van der Westhuysen – want to listen to a modern-day “prophet” such as Buchan telling them how a mythical god can solve every worry they have?
What has gone wrong with South Africans to believe the baloney this man has been spreading all over the country? One would think that the average person pitching up to listen to Buchan has some common sense. From what these people are saying, many of them are well educated, mainstream and middle of the road citizens. But can you become a winning nation with people who believe myths and the mythical god they cling to so easily?
I don’t think so. My own recent study that I have undertaken for Sceptic South Africa and in which a representative sample of South Africans were asked about their beliefs, shows that we are a very gullible and ignorant lot. And that we have virtually no knowledge of the findings of science.
The findings of questions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 indicate how seriously retarded South Africa is in its development and how little influence scientific discoveries and findings have on the way we think.
No wonder the gullible 71 128 and millions thinking and believing along a similar vein, have made Buchan a new messiah. It shows there is something seriously wrong with our parenting, with our educational system, with the way we brainwash our children to believe in these myths. Emotion and a warm fuzzy feeling count, not rational thinking. Only one in nine South Africans really believe rational thinking counts, whereas more than 88% believe that God or an Intelligent Designer can work miracles in people’s lives.
Frightening, to say the least. Even more so because the Afrikaans media have gone to town in uncritically presenting Buchan’s words as if he was telling the truth. I thought news reporting was about reporting the facts. Why then this obsession with myths by the media? Again, Neels Jackson, the Media24 and Beeld reporter, continues to present Buchan in a totally uncritical, no-questions-answered light.
The preliminary results show the following from a questionnaire answered either telephonically or in person by the sample group. The margin of error was plus/minus 2%.
A. Biographical detail
1. Age:
1.1 18-24 18%
1.2 25-34 24%
1.3 35-49 23%
1.4 50-64 18%%
1.5 65 and older 17%
2. Gender:
2.1 Male 53%
2.2 Female 47%
3. Race:
3.1 African 79%
3.2 Coloured 9%
3.3 Asian 3%
3.4 White 9%
4. Education:
4.1 No schooling 2%
4.2 Schooling up to Grade 9 18%
4.3 Grade 12 successfully completed 46%
4.4 1-2 years tertiary education 11%
4.5 3 year degree or diploma 14%
4.6 Advanced degree(s) (4 years and more after Grade 12) 9%
B. Please answer the following questions by encircling the number the closest to what you believe:
1. What is your view on the following statement:
“Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals.”
1.1 True 12%
1.2 False 81%
1.3 I am not sure 4%
1.4 I do not know 3%
2. Which of the following statements do you believe are the closest to the truth?:
2.1 God or an Intelligent Designer created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so. (86%)
2.2 Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of
life, but God or an Intelligent Designer guided this process. (2%)
2.3 Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God or an Intelligent Designer had no part in this process. (12%)
3. How old do you believe the Earth is?:
3.1 6 000 tot 10 000 years 78%
3.2 100 million years 12%
3.3 4,5 billion years 5%
3.4 I do not know 5%
4. Approximately how old do you think the Universe is?
4.1 6 000 to 10 000 years 76%
4.2 4,5 billion years 15%
4.3 13,7 billion years 5%
4.4 I do not know 4%
5. Which of the following statements come closest to what you believe?
5.1 Science and religion are compatible beliefs, each with its own field of endeavour. (11%)
5.2 Science and religion are overlapping because God or an Intelligent Designer created both. (78%)
5.3 Science and religion are incompatible because the findings of science cannot be reconciled with belief in a creator. (11%)
6. Please tell me whether ESP or extrasensory perception is
6.1 something you believe in; (85%)
6.2 something you’re not sure about; or (7%)
6.3 something you don’t believe in. (8%)
7. Please tell me whether telepathy, or communication between minds without using the traditional five senses is
7.1 something you believe in; (80%)
7.2 something you’re not sure about; or (9%)
7.3 something you don’t believe in. (11%)
8. Please tell me whether people’s ability to hear from or communicate mentally with someone who has died is
8.1 something you believe in; (88%)
8.2 something you’re not sure about; or (2%)
8.3 something you don’t believe in. (10%)
9 Please tell me whether the the statement that extra-terrestrial beings have visited earth at some time in the past is
9.1 something you believe in; (67%)
9.2 something you’re not sure about; or (15%)
9.3 something you don’t believe in. (18%)
10. Which of the following statements come closest to what you believe?
10.1.1 I believe that God or an Intelligent Designer can work miracles in peoples lives. (88%)
10.2 I am not sure whether miracles can happen. (1%)
10.3 I only believe in rational explanations that can be proven. (11%)
The results from your questionnaire are more than depressing – how do we as South Africans even begin to address this?
I would love to see the results filtered to show the opinions of only groups A4.5 and A4.6 (those with tertiary education) – hopefully it will be slightly better than for the population as a whole?
Our education system is an absolute disgrace – in 2006 only 2.3% of black matriculants passed maths higher grade. Only 0.8% of black matriculants left school with functional mathematical abilities (i.e. an “A”, “B” or “C” in the higher grade).
Perhaps this is the area where we (sceptics) should focus some of our time and resources?
Comment by Hendrik — July 21, 2008 @ 2:07 pm |
One simple line from the WORD of GOD says it all:
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Cor 1:18)
Comment by Marcus — April 23, 2009 @ 3:03 pm |
thank you marcus. this man’s comments, and those who listen and agree with him sadly constitute the blind leading the blind. i hope the Father will cause the ’scales’ to fall from his eyes (as Jesus did with the apostle Paul), he will stop ‘kicking against the goads’, see his own wretchedness and personal need for the Savior. good on the south africans; they come to the Truth as the scripture suggests, as little children. they can expect God to fulfill all His good Word to them. if mr. buchan takes advantage of them in it, he will answer for that.
too sad the man stirring this up has a bigger brain than heart; no faith. and what a sad, mean, lonely, hard heart has old savage, also commenting here…
Comment by paige — April 26, 2009 @ 5:44 am
Amen to that Marcus.
Comment by jen — April 27, 2009 @ 10:37 pm
The chapter u placed is d true n only reason this man speaks and believe in what he says about Angus Buchan and us as believers I mean how did he think he came in this world, where does his breathing come from, o my lord, I hope he comes to sense b4 its too late, but may d lord continue to bless him, im sure he has experience life changing miracle but maybe he thinks its just his”luck”
Comment by yanique — May 4, 2009 @ 4:42 am
Hey Marcus, quoting lines from a myth book written by bronze age goat herders carries no weight in any argument. In fact it does not even count as taking part in the discussion.
Comment by Hendrik — May 11, 2009 @ 5:30 pm
The person who compiled and performed the above survey and statement clearly lack the one thing required to be a positively contributing citizen to this country and planet, he has no WISDOM!
Comment by Quintin Liebenberg — July 6, 2009 @ 12:54 pm
Finding discussions boards like these saddens me.
What can I say, 500 years ago, science proved that the world is flat. But I suppose the “clever” people out there believes that scientific findings to date is the be all and end all of the universe.
I pray that one day you will meet God, and that you will be able to use your words and past as an awesome testimony.
I would like to extend one challenge – the same challenge I had, when I shared your opinion a couple of years ago – that being, come with, come experience it, and lets talk again.
Don’t be blinded by things of this world.
To the other readers of this forum, don’t attack this guy for his opinion, doing it is not biblical. Instead, let your lives be the testimony. Paul was the persecutor – they make the best carriers of God’s word when they realize their mistakes.
One word of caution – be careful, as blasphemy is the one sin that is unforgiveable
Comment by Oscar — April 28, 2009 @ 7:14 am |
“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’ ” Psalm 14:1, 53:1
I do not have the blind faith to believe the unscientific fairy tales that evolutionists put out:
That you can have design without a designer.
That scientific laws can contradict themselves, – the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Mendels Laws of Genetics both contradict the ‘theory’ of evolution.
It is a much smaller leap of faith for me to believe that the butterfly and the elephant were designed and created by the same Being, than to believe that they ‘evolved’ from the same single-celled organism, such as an amoeba.
If humans evolved from apes, why do we still have apes?
Actually the ‘theory’ of evolution is not science at all, but religeon. You have to have lots of faith to believe that stuff! ‘Science’ by definition is ‘knowledge’ gained by observation. What evolutionists affirm, happened millions and billions of years ago. Not observable!
I find that mostly people refuse to believe in God, not because there is not an abundance of evidence, but because they do not want to be accountable to a Holy and Righteous God. They want to be able to carry on with their wicked lifestyles and not be accountable.
Thank you so much for the statistics on what South Africans believe, they are most encouraging!
By the way, it is clear from your comments that you have never listened to Angus, or attended a Mighty Man Conference. I challenge you to do so. You are welcome to come to MMC with me next year. Then you will be able to speak from personal experience, instead of heresay.
BTW, how much do think, we as humans have, of all the knowledge there is to be had in the universe? Maybe 0.5%? Even if it is 5%, in that great 95% of the unknown, how do you know that there is no God? It is arrogant and foolish to affirm such a thing.
Comment by Damon — April 28, 2009 @ 8:16 am |
My goodness! Let me say this about all the strange words of attack on someone you don’t even know – I dare you to attack the prophet Muhammad or any other holy sites or men of Islam the way you have attacked this Angus man and be a sport, leave your address. But you won’t do it because you have no guts. You are just spineless and gutless without any proof of intellect. You are trying to persuade people that those who have faith in a God are of necessity retarded, but a person with intellect will allow others to have their believes whatever they may be. A great person is only great in the way that he treats little people. You have appointed yourself the mighty one but does not have the character to fill the shoes. How poor and pathetic you are.
Comment by Jonathan Shaw — April 29, 2009 @ 6:35 pm |
I wonder if Angus Buchan actually believes the shit he is preaching. I mean, at R100 a head with gate takings of R7 million, I will preach whatever you want to hear. Just don’t expect me to believe my own crap.
This bullshit has been going on for decades. When Sinclair Lewis wrote Elmer Gantry exposing the Baptist church, he was invited to his own lynching.
George, these statistics of yours are horrific. I would never have believed that South Africans are so uneducated. But these figures confirm what have been discovered in the US; people are ignoramuses. Now save a world with homo sapience; I don’t think it is possible, he will destroy it. Unless some clever bug can save Earth from mankind.
I see old Waco Jaco is prominent among the attendees. What an asshole.
Comment by Savage — July 21, 2008 @ 2:07 pm |
Shame Savage, have you no Faith in the God who actually created Heaven and Earth? Have you no Faith in the God who gave His child without thinking twice, to save YOU? Have you no dignity… I meen come on to try and take away other peoples trust in God .. that’s just pathetic? who are you to judge? God says no man may judge… if He has to wait for the day you pass, only to have the privilage to judge you and even then forgive you and give you eternal life… who are you to judge someone sent by Him to bring Faith, Hope, Love and Trust into this world, this world we call Home.. this world full of haterid, lust, pain and anger? this world that can only be saved by Faith, by God, and by Love… no matter what you say about Angus.. about God, or about the faith being spread in this conference.. God says “I do not love you Less”
do yourself a favour and read the book “The Shack” or even better.. take the time and courage to see the movie “Faith like potatoes” seeing as you have the idea that South Africa is not educated enough… your parents never tought you bout Faith and that is sad… it’s sad that people don’t have the time to teach their children about the Gospel, bout the Father who gave life to you, who gave your parents the joy of having you.. of going through a pregnancy and having the oppertunity that not alot of people have… and you spit in his face and say… yeah a magical bug can do more than God can do.. you think a bug can save South Africa… My dear it’s a bug that caused this heartache… God opens doors that no man can close and God closes doors that no man can open… may you find peace in your haterid, love in your wrath and may God carry you every step of your lost way! may you find God in every sun rise you see, every sun set you see, every drop of rain you feel and every rosebud you smell… after all He is the Master, the Creator of all… including you!!! GOD BLESS you in a million ways.
Comment by Angus Angel — April 25, 2009 @ 5:51 pm |
Check your facts.
The conference is free, the fee is for “camping”
Do you think it`s cheap to hire 60000 chairs, stage, sound, lighting, security, sanitation etc.
I grew up in Greytown, and Angus was one of the last people to get electricity in their house.
They are humble, giving and loving.
See the documentary “faith like potatoes”.
Sad that ignorant atheists blast off about things they know nothing about.
Evolutoinists need more faith to believe their stuff than Christians need to believe.
Evolution – if you become good at climbing trees, will your grandchildren also be? Will they then live in trees?
Comment by David Holst — April 26, 2009 @ 2:13 pm |
Such a sad man you are. And, you must not be happy with your own philosophy if you would spend so much time in your bitterness trying to destroy another person’s beliefs. Your beliefs give you no peace or love for others. But, there is hope even for you (If you have ears to hear). God’s Word has a warning for you…
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Cor 1:18
I’m not concerned with what you believe. God is real and He shows himself faithful to those who trust in Him. He needs no defense. I am so filled with joy knowing a living God who cares for me and would use a man like Angus in such a powerful way.
I cannot pray for God’s blessing on your life but I can pray for His mercy for you.
Comment by Gaston Bilbao — April 28, 2009 @ 2:34 am |
It is so sad when I read comments such as yours. Just like to ask you this; (1) what type of father are you to your children? (2) What type of husband are you to your wife? (3) What type of provider are you to your family, your company, employees and your community?
I know where I stand in all the above questions asked to you? My question to you is do you know? I will pay for you and your friends and your family to attend the next event of Uncle Angus and after attending such an event you will be a changed man because right you are just an “ignorant little boy”.
I will pray to God to arrange for you an encounter with Him soon.
Comment by Fred Jonker — April 28, 2009 @ 6:29 am |
I will pray for you.
Angus is not preaching shit.
You are most probably on the devil’s side.
I think he had such a fright to see so many Christians together this week-end. I think he stayed in bed the whole week-end.
I am not cross with you, I pity you.
Comment by Thea — April 28, 2009 @ 8:53 am |
Well, Angus is doing something for the ministry. People give their hearts to the Lord because of his conferences. Before you complain and really shoot him down….ask yourself if YOU are doing something better than Angus to lead people to God? If not, keep your mouth shut!
Comment by andre — April 30, 2009 @ 8:09 pm |
What we have here are people who believe that they are an authority but only suffer with a sensible voice syndrome. Jesus was accused of all kinds of things by people like you who believe they are a higher authority.
Comment by Anthony Liebenberg — May 2, 2009 @ 7:37 am |
Shame, May God Have pitty on your soul Savage. How dare you call the things Uncle Angus says bullshit. Unbelievable. At least Uncle Angus is doing something positive, more than I can say for you. The covercharge pays for the workers, staffmembers, sound equipment, stage, chairs aswell as the hectares that was not planted on for the first time in 32 years. Maybe you should find out these things before blabbering on about something you know nothing about. If preachers are in it for the money, why are you not in it?????????
Comment by LIZA — May 6, 2009 @ 12:01 pm |
Savage I believe the use of the term homo sapiens for modern man was an unfortunate mistake.
It should rather have been “homo loquens” – “talking/chattering man”, or in view of what we read above and what the species has done to the planet “homo insapiens” – “stupid man”
Comment by Hendrik — July 21, 2008 @ 2:14 pm |
What utter fools you are! Do you think for one minute that you will escape the details of God’s perfect plan? Not seeing something does not mean it does not exist!
There is life after death. Your spirit _will_ awaken to a life once your body has died, and it may or may not like where it is. You don’t have to believe in that to experience it – it is predestined … God will maintain His plan … it will come to pass.
What you do in life will echo in eternity. Your choices now will ultimately decide how and where you spend eternity.
What a sad, sad bunch the atheists, evolutionists, et al are: Why would one spend 70 or 80 years on earth and then die to become compost? If that is the case, then I guess evolution still owes us a few answers – why go to the trouble to end up with such intelligent creatures (after “millions of years” no less), and then there is no real point in having them anyway, because when they die its all over. Pointless really, isn’t it?
Remember the words of the Lord: (Mat 10:32-33) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
I will add you to my list of people to pray for so you may be saved still, for the prayer of an innocent person is powerful, and it can help a lot, as it is written.
Comment by poster — April 28, 2009 @ 5:04 am |
These numbers really are quite shocking. The one good thing at least is that people at least have an opinion. The “draadsitter” options like ID or the “i’m not sure” option is by far the least common in the answers. Or maybe it just shows how set in our ways we are and the inability to change our way of thought. If you are still deciding it at least shows that you are thinking about it and not just accepting.
Comment by Leon — July 21, 2008 @ 2:57 pm |
What is a “draadsitter”?
Comment by pandeist — July 21, 2008 @ 4:10 pm |
I am highly skeptical of these findings. I find it difficult to believe that over 70% of the sample population believes in so many types of baloney!
Comment by Sadrok — July 21, 2008 @ 4:16 pm |
Given the previous post and only 4 replies critical of the godbots….
I do not find these stats surprising at all. People who believe in ghosts, devils, spirits and other gremlins generally believe all sorts of other nonsens too.
I do not think that South Africa is seriously retarded re the questions
. Souf Efrika courent care a hoot.
I do think we must give people time to acquire some education – it is after all only 5000 years since a few people invented writing.
Comment by Objective — July 21, 2008 @ 4:52 pm |
What is a “draadsitter”?
Comment by pandeist — July 21, 2008 @ 4:10 pm ”
Iemand met seer knaters.
Comment by Objective — July 21, 2008 @ 4:54 pm |
Objective wrote (#8 or thereabouts):
In die huidige omstandighede, seker as gevolg van die feit dat hulle te hard darmee probeer “dink” en só ’n beseerte opdoen, of hoe nou?
George, these results, while utterly appalling, do not really surprise me. If I may ask, what was the sample size?
Comment by Con-Tester — July 21, 2008 @ 7:34 pm |
Jammer: “daarmee” en
Comment by Con-Tester — July 21, 2008 @ 7:41 pm |
You are a sad bunch, if you think you could fool all of those people with lies to make money out of them, I dear you to try.
Why judge a man you don’t know?
Is there any wrong or right in science?
Where does your law come from?
Can I kill a man if it benefits me?
Why not?
No, I will not be checking back so save it for when you are dead.
Comment by Francois — July 22, 2008 @ 7:27 am |
Seeing that you do not have the guts to get answers after you puked on this blog, all I can assure you is this; you are going to have a very long death, all alone, but of which you will know nothing.
Comment by Savage — July 22, 2008 @ 7:46 am |
The results of your survey is scary, but very believable.Can it be possible that we could easily tip back into the Dark Ages? With the mass mentality being what it is!
Angus is a clever bastard. He has learnt from evangelists in the USA.
Its all a money making scam, and so easy! Taking candy from a baby!
7 million, minus the hire of the stadium = money for jam. Just try railing against a local mega-church, like Rhema’s fat slug, thousands jump to the defense of this arrogant poephol who lives like a king,and sweats like a stuck pig when he preaches. Now if you cant see thru that, you have to be dumber than dumb.
Comment by Pagan — July 22, 2008 @ 8:28 am |
Hey Pagan,you have just proved yourself as a bigger idiot(bonehead)you believe in manmade gods,shame on you,why are you poor bitter and twisted types so hung up about the money anyway,you must be very jealous!
Comment by christian — April 28, 2009 @ 7:16 pm |
christian, it is because “clever” people use religion to convince people to hand over money and then become filthy rich. I wonder how they brainwash their followers to then defend the millions they are making! What I find amazing is that the loyal followers even proclaim that there was no entrance fees, while every person I have spoken to that attended such an event told me they had to pay to enter.
Comment by Pikkewyn — May 16, 2009 @ 4:21 pm
#11 Francois,
“You are a sad bunch, if you think you could fool all of those people with lies to make money out of them, I dear you to try.”
What are you referring to?
“Why judge a man you don’t know?”
We don’t. We judge his regurgitations. Just as a man cannot regurgitate what is not in his stomach so he cannot regurgitate intellectually what isnt in his brain. And just as you can judge from the contents of his stomach what he has eaten you can judge from his verbal regurgitations what he has swallowed intellectually. Why would we judge at all? Because our lives, our wellbeing and the lives and wellbeing of our children depend on it.
Is there any wrong or right in science?
“Where does your law come from?”
We derive it rationally by taking the information provided by our senses as both valid and true and by applying a process called logic to our reason in order to test it.
“Can I kill a man if it benefits me?”
Of course you can – you are a free agent who may choose to do whatever he wishes. Can you escape from the consequences of your action? Perhaps but most likely not because someone will use reason to track you down and hold you accountable by applying reason once again.
But of course the question is loaded with a moral implication namely that unless some spook told us it is wrong it wouldnt be wrong.
The concepts right and wrong are concepts of identification and they identify the existence or non existence of relationships. Right means a relationship exists and it can be empirically verified. Wrong means no relationship exists. Please note that these concepts are NOT concepts of value, meaning, right is not necessarily good nor is wrong necessarily evil/bad. Wrong does not mean that a relationship exists and that such is evil.bad – it simply means: NO relationship exists. The same applies to the concept right.Since it is only to a living organism that something can be good or evil/bad all concepts of value are made in the context of some living entity – the life of a specific individual irrespective of whether it is a plant an insect or a man (except of course that it is only man who can make such judgements explicitly.
“Why not?”
See above. Mostly people dont kill others because they fear the consequences. When however some powerful and authoritative power such as a government promises immunity from prosecution people have no such fear and they will kill rape plunder and otherwise destroy with impunity (as in war).
“No, I will not be checking back so save it for when you are dead.”
Comment by Objective — July 22, 2008 @ 8:33 am |
at #5 pandeist a “draadsitter” is someone who literally “sits on the wire”, thus not having an definitive opinion.
Comment by Leon — July 22, 2008 @ 3:42 pm |
at #13 Pagan. Even if I don’t want to I kinda have to disagree with you. Tickets for the Loftus event were only R20. That times 70 000 people is only R1.4 million from ticket sales. Hiring Loftus can not be cheap and then there is all the other expenses. I’m pretty sure they made a profit but if they were really in it for the money they could have sold those tickets for much more if you take into consideration how great the demand was with all the tickets sold out 3 months in advance.
The one good thing I can say about Buchan is that I really think he believes what he is preaching and is not in it for the money like Benny Hinn. Or maybe he just isn’t greedy enough yet… Consumed by the dark side he will be…
Comment by Leon — July 22, 2008 @ 4:01 pm |
#11 Comment by Francois — July 22, 2008 @ 7:27 am
Here we go again!
The cavemen come out ranting and raving, swinging their clubs, hunched over and tries to communicate in what sounds like grunts. Then they get their arses handed to them, and they run back to their caves to howl at the moon some more and read from their ancient scripture, which tells them to do all sorts of crazy things, and the rest they make up as they go, pretending that their mythical god told them to go and do this and do that.
They always fall apart when they are confronted after they make their crazy statements and their crazy theories. None of what they can prove, or even reason about in an intelligent manner.
The South Africans are not the only ones who are this superstitious. All over the world there are billions of people who believe in the absurd, just in different forms.
Most of the white people in South Africa are just as superstitious and ignorant as their forefathers were before them, when they arrived in Africa. There has been very very little spiritual evolution for them. I was at a braai last weekend. I was talking to a bunch of very nice people, when this wanker with tattoos muscled in on the conversation. It was not long, and this idiot started talking about god, and how jesus saved him, and how he is a dominee now after he was in trouble with the law and with drugs all his life, until jesus came and saved him. The a very interesting thing happened. I was just about to laugh at the wanker, when I noticed that everyone was intensely listening to this guy. The people I was talking to, who seemed pretty smart, educated, and successful, got this glazed look in their eyes, and they said ” Yes, jesus saved us too, and he is in our lives everyday, and we thank god for everything we have and get to enjoy daily.” I was so fucking disgusted. The fucking morons!!!!!
This dominee was in trouble when he was young, because he was an asshole, then he discovered that if you work for jesus, you don’t have to do another days work ever again, because jesus and his dumb followers will take care of you. This guy has his own church, and he is rolling in the dough, and he was kind of recruiting at the braai for new suckers who will come to his church. He was handing out business cards.
I am an afrikaner, but I can’t fucking stand half of them. I
Comment by McBrolloks — July 22, 2008 @ 4:07 pm |
Mcbrollocks I think you are a sad case. Get help and do it quickly before you hang yourself in one of those caves you talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by Jake — April 27, 2009 @ 12:06 pm |
You are a sorry sick Afrikaner if you ask me. How dare you say Jesus and his dumb followers.You will need to repent and i hope you do it before you die and live in a burning hell for eternity. Maybe you need to get a better life.
Comment by Roos — April 27, 2009 @ 6:15 pm |
I can see you are a loving christian living acording to the example of jesus!
Comment by Pikkewyn — May 16, 2009 @ 4:24 pm
Let me continue……..
I call myself a boer, because I don’t want to be put in the same category as so many of those fucking wankers. I think it is a disgrace, and I try to distance myself from those cavemen and women as much as possible. They give themselves a crutch, a ball and chain, and they are so proud of it. Meanwhile, they look like a bunch of fucking retards!!!! When I was in school, we had to pray everyday, we had to salute a fucking flag, and we had to march up and down the fucking square for 2 hours every week. Sound like NAZI’s? Sure resembles the way they brainwashed children and people. But you would think the afrikaner would break those shackles. You would think they would liberate their minds and thoughts and start to live life for the better. Hell no, they crawl even deeper into their caves and swing their clubs at anyone who tries to show them that there is more to live and the universe that to believe in fucking ghosts.
Bunch of ignorant fucking wankers. Not all of them, just those dumb fucking idiots who refuses to even contemplate the idea that they are wrong.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 22, 2008 @ 4:15 pm |
Mind your language you arrogant idiot.
Comment by Vanessa Roos — April 27, 2009 @ 6:17 pm |
Vanessa Roos, who appointed you head girl?
If you want to see something really obscene, scroll down to comments #140 and #141. There you will find the deeds of your god and his followers described in some detail. Once you have read the two comments, come back here and explain why you would approve of such barbaric behaviour.
Comment by Hendrik — May 11, 2009 @ 5:16 pm
And I just have to add this. The superstitious white people in South Africa has very successfully brainwashed the black people too, to believe in the gods the white people believe in. Something they are very proud off. Might in numbers right? The more people who believe in what you believe in the mor esecure you will feel that you are right and justified, right?
Comment by McBrolloks — July 22, 2008 @ 4:30 pm |
Well, McBrolloks, the general Afrikaner mentality isn’t that hard to fathom. After all, Siener van Rensburg promised them that their god’s cosmic plan had a special place for the Afrikaner, and definitely included their impending salvation. I mean, come on, who’d feel safe fucking that up with a dose of sober reality?
Comment by Con-Tester — July 22, 2008 @ 5:06 pm |
Flock off the both of you!
I am an afrikaner and proud of it even though i think much of the culture sucks.
The language is fantastic and i love reading good afrikaans and sometimes dabble in it -
I am not religious and that means that everybody who is religious are excluded from Afrikanership in my book. (who would want to associate himself with a lot of doffels?)
Comment by Objective — July 22, 2008 @ 5:42 pm |
Ahmen brother!!!!!
Comment by McBrolloks — July 22, 2008 @ 6:03 pm |
You are right Objective. I guess I am just terrified of being bundled into the same category as the super stupid and superstitious bunch of bonehead cavemen who take great pride in their ignorance.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 22, 2008 @ 6:06 pm |
And they HATE people like me. Not that I care. For most of them, anyone who doesn’t completely agree with them and their stupid believes are seen as their enemy. And some of those idiots are dangerous. Cavemen with big clubs. And some of those idiots have a lot of power. In the old days of South Africa, they ran the show. Atrocities were committed by these men and woman, but they believed they were right, and that god was definitely on their side. But what is new? The bad guys always have some god on their side don’t they?
Comment by McBrolloks — July 22, 2008 @ 6:13 pm |
Objective wrote (#22 or thereabouts):
Would it be fair to say, then, that you’re raising an objection based on the commission of a “no true Afrikaner” fallacy?
Comment by Con-Tester — July 22, 2008 @ 6:21 pm |
You guys should beware of generalising – something which we often accuse the believers of. Let’s consider this: With all the preceding hype (in no small measure contributed to by Rapport and Beeld) Buchan and his sponsor, JC, could only muster 71 000 people out of a potential of, say, 5 million (counting only the whites). And then a good 10 to 20 thousand of those attending were “kyk weer” addicts from the Greytown gathering. If we assume that 80% of the Buchan goers were white Afrikaners, i.e. ± 46 000, of whom perhaps only ± 20 000 were men, the rest being wives and children, I think it is a damn poor show on the part of the pukka Afrikaners.So where were the rest of the white believers? I think at least half of the rest of the volk just couldn’t give a stuff, and they and many others don’t believe anyway but are constrained by social and cultural bonds to come out of the closet. My argument is, therefore, that there are hugely more “enlightened” Afrikaners than they are being credited for. In my own limited circle I know of perhaps a dozen who profess christianity but admit privately that they don’t believe.
Comment by Oom Stoffel — July 22, 2008 @ 6:44 pm |
I agree with you Oom Stoffel. I also know many who stay in the closet, but admit to me they don’t believe. My bad for generalizing too much. I guess I am just a very angry man. I get very frustrated when I see idiots ruin my culture and giving my people a very bad name.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 22, 2008 @ 7:23 pm |
But why isn’t there enough Afrikaners who stand up and say this is crap? Why don’t they tell the news paper editors that they had enough of this bullshit reporting? Why isn’t there much science reporting in the Afrikaans newspapers at all? Are they scared? Or they just don’t give a shitt? Or is there another reason for all this?
Comment by McBrolloks — July 22, 2008 @ 7:30 pm |
To the dickhead that asked about science in Blog 11… Science is PERFECT!
To the Dickhead who reckons that death will be long and we won’t know anything about it, Blog 12. We can’t fear what we do not know!!
In this life we need to do what is right, it’s called “conscience” We don’t need to be told what to do or controlled, only the weak can be controlled, Are you conscious or are you unconscious? Don’t ever confuse Religion and Spirituality, We are spiritual beings. Religion… is a form of control
Comment by Pemaloy — July 22, 2008 @ 9:02 pm |
Pemaloy #29
“Don’t ever confuse Religion and Spirituality, We are spiritual beings.”
Can you explain the difference to me please?
Comment by Objective — July 23, 2008 @ 5:32 am |
Con-Tester,
#25 “Would it be fair to say, then, that you’re raising an objection based on the commission of a “no true Afrikaner” fallacy? ”
Did I ever tell you that I dont like smartasses? Especially those who use my weapons against me?
Comment by Objective — July 23, 2008 @ 5:40 am |
McBrollocks,
If i may venture an answer to your questions in #28.
I am sure there are many more Afrikaners complaining to newspapers than you read about. Newspapers, Journalists and Editors however are whores and they have a lot of willing customers to satisfy…..
A more mundane reason may be that most of those who can dont bother because they have more important things to do than save die volk from themselves.
Oom Stoffel is correct – there are many more but few with the intellectual acumen to stand against the consensus and secondly understand how dangerous a game they play….what the consequences are for themselves, their children and grandchildren.
I always find it interesting when farmers complain because the govt is expropriating their farms for the common good…forgetting that they already gave permission for such expropriation when they agreed to be taxed…when people bitch about high electricity, food and fuel costs but forget that they established and support the system that limits competition. When they bitch against rising interest rates but forget that they dont care to have the govt. abolish fiat money.
When business men bitch because govt is expropriating their businesses but forget that they were silent when govt expropriated the farms.
Ughhh…it is only ideas that are ‘bullet proof’ and that is all we have to offer.
Comment by Objective — July 23, 2008 @ 5:52 am |
First of all, I must explain where I got the R100 a head from. My friend in Pretoria lives close to Loftus and sells parking during rugby games. Come the Buchan lot he was surprised to do good business and one of his old friends who left the brethren because he became bible thumping, told him he had a few tickets left at R100 each. Now either they were black market prices or privileged positions at the feet of Jesus. So, sorry for the factual error. (He still pockets a lot of money for a few hours’ entertainment).
McBrollocks #17: “Most of the white people in South Africa are just as superstitious and ignorant as their forefathers were before them, when they arrived in Africa. There has been very very little spiritual evolution for them.”
True. Look at the quality of the Afrikaans magazines; almost entirely lacking any in-depth articles on politics, science, literature, you name it. Is it then surprising that he still clings to his forefathers’ ancient superstitions? No, evolutionary meme lost the plot with them.
Pemaloy #29: “To the Dickhead who reckons that death will be long and we won’t know anything about it, Blog 12. “
Have you had a visitation from anyone beyond the Styx to repudiate me? Has anyone EVER had a visitation that could be proven? No. So rather call yourself dickhead or cock-sucker, or whatever name you so readily dish out.
Pemaloy #29: “We are spiritual beings.”
Please give me a reference where research has been done supporting this claim. Scientific research using the scientific method, not one or other mystical bullshit.
Comment by Savage — July 23, 2008 @ 6:00 am |
Just a question, Pemaloy. If you think we are spiritual beings, what about chimpanzees, gorillas, dogs, E.coli?
Comment by Savage — July 23, 2008 @ 6:12 am |
Savage,
#33 “Pemaloy #29: “To the Dickhead who reckons that death will be long and we won’t know anything about it, Blog 12. “
He is implying that there is something to know about death that we dont already know ie that it is some condition where living matter retains its organised state or ‘the soul’ rests while it is waiting for its resurrection.
As I said elsewhere: people cannot use language/ concepts that they dont already hold and their arguments/assertions are always logically antecedent to their premises even when such premises are only held in subliminal form in their brains. (one reason why it is so difficult for religious people to give up their religion: the primary structures are laid down and will always be there and requires a very strenuous effort to establish new pathways to override those already established and integrate the latter with the rest of your knowledge.)
Comment by Objective — July 23, 2008 @ 6:21 am |
While, as a general rule (
), most would agree with Oom Stoffel’s points in #26 (or thereabouts) concerning the problems of generalisations, it should be pointed out that separating personal experience and its attendant biases – selection, confirmation – is quite hard. Nonetheless, I myself have over the years had interactions, estimated to number in the low one hundreds, with Afrikaners from various parts of the country owing to a decidedly secular occupation that involved a considerable amount of travel. I can say with some confidence that the overwhelming majority of them follow one or other christian god-worship, as evidenced by saying Grace at mealtimes, (Sunday) church attendances, and, of course, being made an instant target for “conversion” as soon as my atheist stance is revealed. It may be noted that the sample is for all intents and purposes both randomly drawn and statistically significant in number.
It is also, I think, a little misleading to use the Buchan attendance and population figures to draw such broad conclusions regarding Afrikaner religiosity or the absence thereof. It would be akin to arguing that if a popular musical act like U2 or REM were to hold a series of concerts in SA, based on the attendance figures at various venues as compared to the total number of youths in the country, the band in question is actually quite unpopular. Not everyone who fails to attend has sufficient inclination and/or the wherewithal to do so, or perhaps they are keener on some other band.
In short, I envy Oom Stoffel his own experiences in the context of day-to-day exchanges with Afrikaners.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 23, 2008 @ 7:49 am |
Pemaloy wrote (#29 or thereabouts):
In addition to Objective’s request in #30 (or thereabouts) for an explanation of the difference between “religion” and “spirituality,” please also provide a functional definition of what it means for a living being to be “spiritual” – that is, a definition that includes measurable criteria for distinguishing between the presence and the absence of “spirituality” in a living being.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 23, 2008 @ 7:50 am |
An excerpt from a link at PZ Myers’ blog to
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/red-hot-enlightenment-led-me-to-believe-in-one-fewer-god-20080722-3jas.html?page=-1
“I don’t care what people believe in, but I do care that religion impacts on political discourse, public policy and that it stunts the ability of people to think for themselves and question. And that it kills people and causes suffering. But most of all I care that the invisible electric fences that are wired in the minds of children brainwashed by religion are difficult to remove. And impossible if you don’t even know they’re there.”
Luckily some of us saw the fences and broke them down. I wonder what it takes (1) to recognize the fence, and (2) to have the courage to break it down. Are some people born with the god-meme so entrenched that you end up with the Buchan circus and nobody can save them to rational thinking, or do we find the road of least resistance fitting our way of life best?
I don’t know if anybody has read Ira Levin’s book, “This Perfect Day”? The hero knows he has to fight the computer that has taken over the world, (by chemical means), controlling human actions and thought. It is almost a catch 22 because it very much relates to point (1) above; the hero is also drugged but somewhere deep down a voice says: “This is all shit!”
Anyway, I am shit glad that my mother “het die god meme dood gelê met my geboorte”.
Comment by Savage — July 23, 2008 @ 1:05 pm |
I am deeply offended by your comment at the head of this page. You have missed the baot totally about who Angus Buchan and what he is preaching about. Had you attended MMC2008 you would have realised that you are the misguided heathen.
He teaches family values and the traditional family way of life.
He teaches honesty in everything you do in your private and business life. Corruption and devious businesss practices will not get you anywhere ultimately.
He teaches respect and discipline, something South Africa is sadly lacking.
He teaches that having a common goal in God you will achieve this.
He teaches that God is first in your life and through this devotion to God and not the false prophets on earth that all the rest wioll follow. Not automatically, you have work for it.
This man is a simple man who does not have mistresses, porches, private jets like the corrupt Ray Macaulie and others. The money that is raised from the conferences do not go to Angus at all. All of it goes to cover costs and for other people.
Pick on someone else who deserves your acidic tongue else you may find yourself on the wrong end of retribution.
This man is a humble honest down to earth farmer who like everyone at MMC2008 has had their lives changed for the better by God.
Comment by Jamie Ross — July 23, 2008 @ 1:58 pm |
I forgot to mention that he is a black or white man and no grey areas exisit in his beliefe. In his words, you either For God or against him, God would rather you were against him than in the grey zone.
He also preaches moral standards where
Pornography,
Homosexuality
Dishonesty
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for life
SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED – THERE ARE NOT GREY AREAS IN THIS AND I FULLY SUPPORT HIM. 60,000 other men from all walks of life supported this at MMC 2008 and Loftus (500 million watched) and Ireland And Australia. The time for turning a blind eye to corruption, imorality needs to stop. Only then can we get SOuth Africa back to being a safe and great country that it is.
Comment by Jamie Ross — July 23, 2008 @ 2:18 pm |
Jamie Ross #39: “This man is a simple man who does not have mistresses, porches, private jets like the corrupt Ray Macaulie and others. The money that is raised from the conferences do not go to Angus at all. All of it goes to cover costs and for other people.”
Are you the accountant, verifying no money ends up in Buchan’s pocket? Are you the sleuth verifying no adultery? Are you the judge judging Macauly and his followers? Who will judge you? And who are the other people the money goes to?
“This man is a humble honest down to earth farmer who like everyone at MMC2008 has had their lives changed for the better by God.”
Like the “humble honest down to earth” fisherman whose doctrine caused so much agony in this world? Do you base your faith on Buchan to show you the way again? Why have you lost it? Your book should guide you to the heights (or deaths) you so long for. You surely are a pathetic bunch!
Comment by Savage — July 23, 2008 @ 2:29 pm |
My postings are not going through. God must be stopping them.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 23, 2008 @ 3:02 pm |
McBrollocks,
#42 refers. Dammit and i didnt want to comment because i was waiting to read yours. I will speak to god to get her act together. Try again!
Comment by Objective — July 23, 2008 @ 3:09 pm |
@ Jamie Ross # 39:
I’m also deeply offended. I’m offended because your religion has been foisted on mankind for the last 2000 years.I’m offended that your religion has caused mass murder and genocide perpetrated by your handlers in the form of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trails etc.
It offends me that your tripe has thwarted the progress of science & medicine since time immemorial.
It offends and irks me no-end that you judgemental, insipid, stupid,ignorant excuses for a human being, still have the utter gall to spew forth your stone age, dung-gatherer-mentality type mythlogy, and just expect us to sit here and take it while you wallow in your own self-righteousness.
I say – FUCK YOU – and the mangy donkey you rode in on!
Comment by Pagan — July 23, 2008 @ 3:17 pm |
God has got McBrollocks’ number! Mac, watch out for dark clouds, lightning is lurching!
Comment by Savage — July 23, 2008 @ 3:18 pm |
My posts are not going through anymore. I think I pissed god off.
Jamie Ross wrote:
“I forgot to mention that he is a black or white man and no grey areas exisit in his beliefe. In his words, you either For God or against him, God would rather you were against him than in the grey zone.
He also preaches moral standards where
Pornography,
Homosexuality
Dishonesty
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for life
SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED – THERE ARE NOT GREY AREAS IN THIS AND I FULLY SUPPORT HIM.”
Sounds like hate speech to me. Sounds like the god from the old testament talking here.
Good for you Jamie Ross!!!!!!! Why don’t you and your other mighty ignorant and stupid men go and sort out these homosexuals, go and spread justice and eradicate dishonesty and lock up all with a disrespect for authority. Burn all publications and lock up all people who you and your mighty ignorant and stupid men say is and has anything to do with, or even enjoy, pornography.
As you shouted on the blog: “SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED – THERE ARE NOT GREY AREAS IN THIS AND I FULLY SUPPORT HIM.”
How far are you and your mighty ignorant and stupid men willing to go to do gods good work?
Here is a great summary of you and Buchan’s god:
“”The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
So says Richard Dawkins.”"
Jamie Ross just proved that he and Buchan’s mighty ignorant and stupid men are nothing but a bunch of cavemen, willing to swing their clubs, howl at the moon, and then go back to their caves.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 23, 2008 @ 3:21 pm |
McBrolloks wrote (#46 or thereabouts):
… which suggests that a brilliantly representative acronym for them is “MIASMA.”
Comment by Con-Tester — July 23, 2008 @ 4:41 pm |
Good one CT!!!
MIASMA
Buchan’s MIASMA’s
Comment by McBrolloks — July 23, 2008 @ 5:37 pm |
Con-Tester,
Excellent. the pollution theory of religion …it is breathed in through the air…now wonder children acquire it at a young age.
Comment by Objective — July 23, 2008 @ 6:22 pm |
One thing I noticed was that when it comes to people who raise their children, and religion, many parents put their children through the usual motions, even if they do not believe in a god. I have asked some of these parents, who I know personally, why they do it. The answer is simple to them. They don’t want to handicap their children, and have them branded and bullied by others, for being different. They don’t want other kids to make fun of them and to call them names because they do not believe in jesus etc.
The problem is, how do you later get that Meme out of them? Is it worth the risk?
Comment by McBrolloks — July 23, 2008 @ 7:13 pm |
Oom Stoffel – ek weet van baie mense wat graag wou gaan na Loftus vir Jesus toe, maar nie kon nie – kaartjies was uitverkoop. Loftus kan maar net ‘n sekere aantal mense vat! Dis hoekom slegs 71000+ mense daar was, want die kaartjies was toe uitverkoop. Verder – jou comments is nogal interessant! Savage – die R100 was of losiekaartjies (wat privaatmense wat Loftus-seisoenkaartjies het, verkoop het – in daai geval blameer Blou Bul ondersteuners
} of dit was iemand wat ‘n killing uit Christene wou maak. Die regte kaartjies was slegs R20 stuk – gaan vind maar uit by Computicket. Om die stadion te huur en al die sound equipment – dit kos geld, boeta. R100 vir Mighty Men het gegaan vir staanplek, vir die boere wat die staanplek (vir tente, ens) verskaf het. Om hulle te vergoed vir die landerye wat hulle opgeoffer het. Angus Buchan het self 3 maaltye verskaf vir 60 000 mans sonder om enige geld vir dit te vra! Jy moet dalk bietjie research doen oor iets voor jy praat daaroor! McBrollocks. Jinne boet, maar jy’t issues! Los die Christene uit, jy veralgemeen darem nou erg! Ek’s ‘n Christen maar het nog nooit en sal nooit my geloof in iemand se keel afdruk nie. As die mense by die braai (of enige ander plek) wil praat oor hul geloof – laat hulle dit doen. Freedom of speech, honeybunch. Hulle het jou nie gedwing om te luister nie. En God help mense wat hulself help. Gee my bewyse dat die dominee op sy louere rus. Jy weet heel duidelik nie hoe hard ‘n dominee, pastoor, ens moet werk vir wat hy/sy kry nie. Waar is die volgende “hate speech”:
. En McBrolloks – gaan google bietjie wat Sir Arthur Conan Doyle gesê het van die Afrikaner/Boer (in my oë dieselfde ding). Almal wat iets weet van ons Boere (ek is self ‘n trotse een) is dat Christenskap nog altyd ‘n baie groot rol gespeel het in ons kultuur. En Christenskap (die ware een, nie soos daai waarvan julle praat wat eintlik closet cases is nie) is eintlik oor doen aan ander wat jy aan jou gedoen wil he, liefde vir jou naaste. Ja dis moeilik om iets goeds te sien in iemand soos Mugabe 
, maar tog. Dis wat binne is wat tel, nie die buite nie. En McBrolloks – met al jou rantings en ravings (soos Pagan en Savage), is ek nog steeds nie beledigd, ongelukkig, kwaad, of enigiets nie. Dis net te veel moeite! Mooi dag vir julle!
Dishonesty
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for life
Dis basiese lewensreels wat meeste mense hul kinders leer, of hul nou Christene, Moslems, of Ateiste is. It’s basic human rights! Die baie verskillende gelowe beklemtoon dit net. Wat presies is fout daarmee?
Pagan: “and just expect us to sit here and take it while you wallow in your own self-righteousness.” Maar jy verwag ons as Christene moet jou comments vat? Hoe werk dit? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander….
Comment by Chantelle — July 23, 2008 @ 7:16 pm |
Chantelle, jy het “”He also preaches moral standards where Pornography & Homosexuality”" uitgelos toe jy die volgende geskryf het: “Waar is die volgende “hate speech”:
Dishonesty
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for life
Dis basiese lewensreels wat meeste mense hul kinders leer, of hul nou Christene, Moslems, of Ateiste is. It’s basic human rights! Die baie verskillende gelowe beklemtoon dit net. Wat presies is fout daarmee?
So jy dink daar is niks fout daarmee om mense wat anders is te verdoem nie? En waar stop dit? So hoe voel jy oor mense wat gay is? Hoe voel jy oor mense wat van porongarfie hou?
Julle christene wil altyd so graag vir almal vertel wat hulle mag en nie mag doen nie. Julle wil so graag die wette maak, sodat ons nie vir onself hoef te besluit nie, maar sodat jy en jou dom-gat dominee alles vir ons kan besluit.
En van wanneer af werk dominees hard? Hulle is ‘n klomp slap gatte wat van eerlike mense se salarisse af hulle cut vat. Hoekom gee jou god nie vir hom geld sodat hy die mense in sy kerk nie hoef te belas nie? Die skepper van die heelal, maar vir een of ander rede kan hy nie met geld werk nie? Ek ken baie dominies wat ‘n lekker gemaklike lewe ly. En ek het al baie van hulle gesien wat hulle gatte gesien het omdat hulle een of ander vrou in die gemeente gespyker het.
Jy en jou christen tjommies is lekker deur die kak. Julle glo in ‘n spook, en nogal ‘n baie mean spook, wat soos Dawkins hom beskryf: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
Kan jy nie sien dat daar iets groots fout is met die hele prentjie nie? Is te te dom, of wil jy net nie eers probeer om daaroor te dink nie?
En as jy ‘n poepol soos Buchan volg, wat soos julle self gese het, geen tollerance teenoor gays en pornografie en oneerlikheid en geen respek vir “mag” en ‘n “disrespect for life”, wat maak dit jou? Wat dink jy sou liewe jesus gese het teenoor ‘n dom peopol wat sulke goed gaan staan en preek?
Buchan is oneerlik. So hy breek sy eie gospel.
Jy se ek het issues, jip, reg in die kol, ek het fokken huge issues. Mense soos jy wat vir mense soos ek probeer se wat ek mag en nie mag doen nie. Op skool was dit met ‘n rottang gedoen, maar nou dat ek nie meer vir sulke dom poesse hoef te buk nie, kan ek se wat ek wil, en julle dom fokken christine is die grootste klomp assholes. Julle glo in ‘n spook, julle weier om verantwoordelik vir julle eie lewens te neem, en blameer alles wat verkeerd gaan op die arme spook. Julle boelie en verneder en verkleineer mense wat nie saam stem met julle nie. Julle het nog nooit ‘n probleem gehad om mense te reuineer wat in julle pad staan nie, selfs dood te maak nie.
Julle is ‘n klomp grot mense. Julle lewe nog in die stone-age. Julle is te bang om te probeer verstaan wat regtig om julle aan gaan.
Ek gee regtig nie ‘n fok om of ek jou kwaad gemaak het of nie. Dis nie my doel nie. Ek praat op hierdie blog met ander mense wat ook sien hoe absurd julle christene/grot-mense is.
Glo jy regtig jy gaan eendag na ‘n “hemel” toe? Glo jy regtig daar is ‘n “hemel”? Glo jy regtig daar is ‘n god wat ‘n fok omgee oor jou of enige ander mens op hierdie rots wat om ‘n klein sonnetjie in ‘n helse groot heelal draai?
Dink jy nie dit is en klink absurd nie? En hoekom is jou magtige god so stil? Ons hoor niks van hom af nie, hy doen geen wonderwerke nie, of is daar net ‘n klein hoeveelheid mense wat spesiaal genoeg is vir ‘n wonderwerk? Wat van al die christene wat elke jaar vermoor, verkrag, en opgedonder word deur kriminele? Hoekom gebeur dit met hulle?
Jy is regtig so mal soos ‘n haas as jy dink jou god bestaan, en as hy werklik bestaan, behoort jy fokken hard te begin nip, want jy kan nie so ‘n wrede mal fokker vertrou nie.
Anyway, lekker bid vir die res van jou lewe. Onthou net, jy moet jouself een ding vra: Wat as jy verkeerd is? Wat dan? Gaan jy die enigste lewe wat jy het op jou kniee mors?
Comment by McBrolloks — July 23, 2008 @ 7:47 pm |
And, Chantelle, not to subtract from McBrolloks’ forceful comment, I’ll add just this: Judging by your name and proselytising of Angus’ MIASMA, you are a woman who is involved with one of the potato farmer’s uncritical minions, probably to the tune of being married to said minion. If so, are you truly happy that women, you among them, have actively been excluded from some of the Greytown sessions? Because if you are, you should realise that, given a slightly different set of circumstances, you are also not very far from donning a burka and prostrating yourself completely to the whimsical caprices and wishful vagaries of your male companion. And only a fool would swallow the idea that said companion enjoys special and exclusive instruction from a god you believe also to be yours.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 23, 2008 @ 9:12 pm |
Chantelle, you are very gullible to think for one moment that Buchan isn’t in this for the money. Look at all the churches, preachers, the Ray McCaulys, Jimmy Swaggarts, and many others of this world. They are creaming it for poor Jesus but that money goes straight into the back pocket. No wonder Napoleon said: “I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay their hands on anything they can get.”
My impression of the religious is this; you are very pissed-off that the good old days when atheists could be burned at the stake are over. You are pissed-off because we can unmask you for what you really are and you can do nothing about it. You are pissed-off because we laugh at you and stop you whenever you want to bring your religious shit into the science classroom. You are still in the dark ages and science pisses you off because Nature is explained in very simple terms. Without half trying you could understand the wonders of Nature but you don’t want to. Why not? Because science will perhaps, just perhaps, open your eyes with the realization that there is no god.
Discussing the religious nuts and their doings with friends, we always end up with: “How the fuck does these people’s brains work?” You tell me, I’m lost.
Comment by Savage — July 24, 2008 @ 5:34 am |
Chantelle,
I understand what homosexuals are and what xtians would consider pornography.
You do not seem to attach any meaning to the terms:
Dishonesty
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for life
I notice that it is formulated in the negative; Thus we are not crucified for being honest but for being DIShonest. What exactly is meant with this term in this context?
That to deny the bible and spooks is dishonest? If honesty is your or buckhans “moral value” then what do you mean by the term “honesty”.
Why should authority be respected? Because it is instituted by yuor spook? What gives people AUTHORITY? And must we respect authority because otherwise we wont accept the bullshit shouted out by an authoritative preacher?
Who disrespects life? Only the xtian and the spook preachers because life, it is obvious to anyone living, is a physical process depending of physical nourishment and obedience to physical laws.
It is only the xtian and the spook preacher who elevates nothingness to some supreme form of being as ask living people to sacrific their lives for spooks; it is only mystics who have no respect for reason, science, facts that disrespects life.
Care to tape yuor spook teacher next time and then sit down and analyse what he actually says? (Well ok given you care and is able).
Comment by Objective — July 24, 2008 @ 6:09 am |
“The wonderful thing about science is it doesn’t ask for your faith, it just asks for your eyes.”
http://xkcd.com/154/
However, Feynman said: “Nature doesn’t care if you’re clever, you can still be wrong.” And up till now, Nature hasn’t shown us any gods.
Comment by Savage — July 24, 2008 @ 7:11 am |
Looks like I stired up a hornets nest. It does not surprise that the people who have attacked me resort to name calling, insults, acronyms and the like. Shows their lack of intelligence.
In answer to the people who said openly that I am not critical of Angus Buchan, I am and I am aware he repeats hsi stories and his sermons. I used Ray McCauly as an exmple but I oculd have used dozens of others. You find Ray Mccauly asing R100 for three days of food, accomodation and the sanitation etc and tell me the guy is makign a profit. Wake up to reality and be the objective people you accuse me of not being.
We are not cavement to believe in morality, honesty and respect for others around us. To me and many others, this is the sign of a decent human being. Yes the vlaues being taught are old fashioned but hell they work. It is individuals like you with your lack of culture, respect and abusive attitude that is grinding this country into the mire it is heading for.
I am not enforcing my belief and faith on you so go somewhere else when you cannot behave like a human with some respect. You have your views and I do not mind listening to them and I will not condemn you for them as long as they are legal and not imoral. I just expect the same repect for my faith and my views as I show you.
By the way there was a large contingent of “Gay” people at the MMC conference and I did not see them get up and leave at his words. I am no gay basher but I certainly do think it is wrong and I do tell my gay friends to their faces and they respect my opinion AND we are still friends.
So start showing some respect and stop acting like a neanderthal with the insults especially SAVAGE
Comment by Jamie Ross — July 24, 2008 @ 7:24 am |
Jamie Ross #57: “I am no gay basher but I certainly do think it is wrong..”
You should speak to your god who you believe created people; he created the gays; it is in their genes and they have no choice in the matter. But then science discovering this must be wrong because somewhere (I guess) in your book of stories it says differently. No, Jamie Ross, we have no respect for you and your religious friends because you are dangerous and poison the minds of young people, and we will always fight you. Fortunately for us the playing field has been leveled and your clear unfair advantage of old has been eliminated.
Comment by Savage — July 24, 2008 @ 8:02 am |
God created people he did NOT create gay people that is their own free choice to reject God and His lessons for Life. homosexuality is an abomination and of no moral or “evolutionary” benefit. when was the last time any gay couple had a child born to them? NEVER. It is NOT in their genes God made us for a purpose but He gave us the freedom to choose life or death. I choose Life in Jesus Christ and in Him I have freedom to love, laugh, and live.
You obviously have never studied Gods word so you do not know of what you speak. I challenge anyone on this board to study Gods word for a year and see if it doesnt change your life.
Comment by Jon Peterman — July 7, 2009 @ 2:32 am |
But, Jamie Ross, none of those values — honesty, decency, respect — you claim to hold in high regard require an Angus Buchan, or a Ray McCauley, or a large communal gathering, or even a god for their mediation. If you disagree, you’ll have to explain why.
Furthermore, Jamie Ross, please enlighten your readership how you think that an acronym constitutes an attack and how it demonstrates a lack of intelligence. After all, a good acronym is much more than the sum of its letters.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 24, 2008 @ 8:43 am |
Savage – I did not expect you to show me respect, in fact I would have been shocked by it had you shown me the respect I have shown you. I also assume that you are one of these people who drive a large expensive vehicle that disregards the alws of this country. Heathens like yourself are the poisonous people who destroy morality in this world by teaching children to disprepect their elders, authority.
I also note that you and your kind are not proud of yourselves enough to put your full correct names but use false names.
Believe it or not I am also a man of science and most of my life have studied tthe creation of the universe and science and also the exisitence of UFOs, ancient civilisations of all religions. I am not a BLIND believer. An example if that I have studied the “Finger Prints of The Gods” and similar books since I was a child. It is this studying of other religions, cultures and societies in readiung material and also in the 51 countries I have travelled to that makes me a respectful and tollerant person and not my faith. My faith gives me the strength to not repsond as you do with disrespect. I just feel sorry you and lost pointless life. What do you look forward to other than taking your frustation and bitterness out on people who are happy with believing in a faith that makes the world a better place.
My mother once said that a person who resorts to insults and foul language shows a lack of character and education. She also never forced religion on any of our famil and it was our choice as children alone.
You asked by I cam back to God recently? I will tell you. I was a Roman Catholic and proud of it but learnt that they were wrong and their morals were wrong. Yes, as Ghandi said “I like your Christ but I dont like all your Christians”. Sadly this is true, not all people who call themselves Christians are worthy to be called christians. I fell out with the Catholic church when I questioned them about committing sins all week, getting forgiven in cofefssion on Sunday and then committing them again the next week knwoign on Sunday I confess again and everything is alright. My faith now helps me to try not commit those sins in the first place, not respond with insults or violence when faced with BMW/4×4/taxi drivers in the traffic. Being a Christian takes huge strength. It is easier to not be one.
Good luck in the future and enjoy your life.
JAmie Ross
Comment by Jamie Ross — July 24, 2008 @ 8:44 am |
Con-Tester: the sample size was 2 300, a typical acceptable size for the SA population.
Jamie Ross and Chantelle: you may think gays are wrong and your hero-preacher Angus Buchan may think it; and all those dominees of the Moreletta Park NG Church who fired the organist because he was gay.
But what does science say about this ancient Middle-Eastern idea, so judgementally emphasised in the Bible and the Koran? Science has emphatically found that homosexuality is definitely linked to the genes in a person, to development in your mother’s womb. And in a minor way to cultural aspects.
How then can anyone be judged and killed and expelled from society because of what happened in the womb before a person was born? And through the genes you inherited from your parents?
And yet you and pastor Angus prefer to believe a group of ancient, scientifically illiterate men from the Middle-East who did not know anything about the findings of science and the natural develeopment of life?
What is science? “Science is the systematic enterprise of gathering knowledge about the world and organizing and condensing that knowledge into testable laws and theories” (E.O. Wilson, Consilience – he is the scientist who has won two Pulitzr prizes for those who only know who Angus Buchan is).
Jamie Ross & Chantelle, think about your ignorance. “It is not so much knowledge of science that the public needs as a scientific worldview – an understanding that we live in an orderly universe, governed by physical laws that cannot be circumvented”. (Robert Park: Voodoo Science – The Road From Foolishness to Fraud).
Park, one of America’s leading physicists, also emphasised the main reason you and all the others following Buchan are so ignorant: “The belief engine knows nothing of the laws of probability.”
Unless you start reading science and try at least to get a scientific world view, you will forever be shackled and kept in chains by your religion. What a frigtening thought!
Comment by George Claassen — July 24, 2008 @ 8:48 am |
“But, Jamie Ross, none of those values — honesty, decency, respect — you claim to hold in high regard require an Angus Buchan, or a Ray McCauley, or a large communal gathering, or even a god for their mediation. If you disagree, you’ll have to explain why.
Furthermore, Jamie Ross, please enlighten your readership how you think that an acronym constitutes an attack and how it demonstrates a lack of intelligence. After all, a good acronym is much more than the sum of its letters.”
Yes the acronym was clever and amusing and even I can appreciate the thought that went into it. See I am open minded. However the oriignal insult “… Buchan’s mighty ignorant and stupid men [assembly]…” is what I do not agree with. Firstly there were CEOs of huge multinational companies that arrived in personal jets, people on bicycles and hitching lifts to get there.
I challenge you to attend MMC 2009 and tell me you cannot be moved by just the presence of the 200,000 esitmated men who will attend. Even if God was not present it would be an amazing sight to witness. In MMC 2008 there were 14kms queues for 6-7 hours. There were no arguments, pushing, shoving, fighting as there would have been. Everyone just took it in their stride.
The gathering helps being Men together where the focus is on Men and what is important to me. This is something in our country that we as men and not just males need is to focus on ourselves as the coutnry is refocusing and men are becoming marginalised but I dont want to open that cna of worms just yet.
The gathering, yes we need that sometimes to have someone like Angus Buchan who will tell us with passion and conviction that we need to get our lives in order. He shares is life with us and we identify with that and I knwo my life has been varied as well to put it politly. Yes we need someone to kick our butts and tell us that we need to take “our time” every day. Apart from that it is great to have a bonding session of 60,000 men this year all with a common cause.
Angus is a simple farmer who loves God with a passion you rarely see in any man. Men have lost the passion in their life and that is nto jsut for God, it is for all aspects, we focus on the negativity of the economy, crime and things like that. Angus teaches that no matter how bad things get you can pull through. Is that so wrong? Or woudl you much rather go pay a shrink to listen and tell you uninterestdly the same things?
ps I am enjoying this discussion and do read all your comments and contemplate them with an open minds
Comment by Jamie Ross — July 24, 2008 @ 9:04 am |
Last point before lunch
Unless you start reading science and try at least to get a scientific world view, you will forever be shackled and kept in chains by your religion. What a frigtening thought!
Comment by George Claassen — July 24, 2008 @ 8:48 am
George – I have studdied science since I was 5 years old AND WITH AN OPEN MIND. In case you are wondering at 8 years old I studied the Russian Revolution. So politlely I object to being called ignorant. By your wording George, I recognise someone with intelligence unlike some of the utterings on this page.
Ps I studdied the Q’oran when I was just 12
Comment by Jamie Ross — July 24, 2008 @ 9:09 am |
Jamie Ross #60: “Savage – I did not expect you to show me respect, in fact I would have been shocked by it had you shown me the respect I have shown you. I also assume that you are one of these people who drive a large expensive vehicle that disregards the alws of this country. Heathens like yourself are the poisonous people who destroy morality in this world by teaching children to disprepect their elders, authority.”
Wrong with the vehicle and wrong with my children’s upbringing. Why you religious nuts have to stick morality stickers to atheists is just a reflection of your delusional mental capacity and inability to a conduct a rational argument.
Jamie Ross #60: “Believe it or not I am also a man of science and most of my life have studied tthe creation of the universe and science and also the exisitence of UFOs, ancient civilisations of all religions. I am not a BLIND believer. An example if that I have studied the “Finger Prints of The Gods” and similar books since I was a child.”
You are definitely NOT a man of science if you believe anything you read in “Fingerprints of the Gods”. And UFO’s; good heavens, where is one single scientific proof of them? No Jamie Ross, you just confirmed how delusional you are. Little surprise then that the god-bug got hold of you as well.
Comment by Savage — July 24, 2008 @ 9:37 am |
Jamie Ross,
Your #40 refers:
“Dishonesty
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for life
SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED – THERE ARE NOT GREY AREAS IN THIS AND I FULLY SUPPORT HIM.”
I say you are a liar – you tolerate all that you mention above in the entirety of your rantings. If you can show that i am wrong i will retract my accusation that you are a liar.
Seeing as how you are a learned scholar in various holy books perhaps you can address some of my question to Chantelle in #55?
Comment by Objective — July 24, 2008 @ 10:31 am |
Fingerprints of the gods, was an interesting read, I dont recall the authors promoting religion or god. The authors had problems with Egyptologists not wishing to follow accepted scientific dating methods, ignoring photographic evidence of metal handles, and throwing several reputable scientists off of site just as they were about to make discoveries.
They also hint that the stellar constellations in relation to the sphinx and Egyptian mythology, along with some physical structures implied the original age to be 10500BC, a point the authors felt could have been scientifically verified had the Egyptian authorities not refused to cooperate.
As for peaceful crowds not pushing and fighting, Woodstock was a good example too, brown acid and Love man, piece bro!
Lastly, thank you Leon for your clarification, it was munificent of you.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 1:03 pm |
Jamie and Chantelle. Are you guys going to stick around to back your views or run away like most of the godbots do?
Comment by Renier — July 24, 2008 @ 1:51 pm |
My guess is they will eventually become weary of the unremitting inequitable exploitation and abscond perturbed. The fact that this gives you a warm fuzzy feeling is on your conscience.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 2:36 pm |
pandeist wrote (#68 or thereabouts):
Not exactly your forte, this language thing, is it?
pandeist wrote (#68 or thereabouts):
And you know this “[giving] a warm fuzzy feeling” to be a fact exactly how? Because it looks remarkably like another soggy candidate for entry into the rapidly swelling catalogue of bogus pandeist-facts.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 24, 2008 @ 3:53 pm |
Jamie Ross wrote: “We are not cavement to believe in morality, honesty and respect for others around us. To me and many others, this is the sign of a decent human being. Yes the vlaues being taught are old fashioned but hell they work. It is individuals like you with your lack of culture, respect and abusive attitude that is grinding this country into the mire it is heading for.”
If these are the best morals you and your cavemen can come up with, then you are very messed up. If the bible is the best book you chose out there today for moral guidance, then you are even crazier that I thought.
You are acting like a bunch of cavemen and women.
You also wrote : “It is individuals like you with your lack of culture, respect and abusive attitude that is grinding this country into the mire it is heading for.”
Really? Shit, I didn’t know that. I thought most people who believe in science and have an open mind and read more than just one stupid book, written by a bunch of ignorant nomadic shovanistic goat herders thousands of years ago, contribute much more to society than a bunch of cavemen who fail to take action, because their invisible and silent god will solve all the problems. Where is you god? Why doesn’t he fix just some of the problems our society is facing on a daily basis? Why doesn’t he eradicate poverty and disease? Or is he saving the best for heaven, where only you and a few of your delusional friends will be given entry to?
Morality is in our genes, it’s not taught by an asshole on a pulpit.
Look what your religion alone has done to promote suffering, killing, torture, murder, war, rape, the spread of misery etc. all over the world for centuries. Do you have anything to say about that?
Jamie Ross says he was a catholic, but had a fallout with them. But really, what is the difference between one church and the other? Except for some rituals etc. You read the same old book, pray, sing, collect money from the poor, and everyone else who will give it. You sin, but created a loophole, so that you might ALL be forgiven, no matter what you did.
This is the fucking problem. If you and your cavemen and women knew there was no forgiveness for all your sins, then maybe you will think twice before you sin like that. Maybe you will think twice before you kill and rape and steal and lie and cheat on your spouses. How many people on death row has found jesus? How many people has joined armies and went to war for a god? How many people has been murdered in the name of a god?
You say there were big shots at the mighty ignorant and stupid men’s assembly. No shit. I said it earlier in the blog. A lot of those wankers have a lot of power, and they are not afraid to use it. You guys are dangerous.
You can say what you want about your excuses to exclude women, but Con-Tester is right. It is steps away from giving them burkas.
You call yourself a man of science. HA!!!!!!! You are totally disqualified!!!! Just by what you have written here on this blog, totally shows what a mighty ignorant man you are.
I would like to know 2 things from you.
1.) Do you believe in E.T. visits to planet earth?
2.) Are you a Start Trek fan?
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 3:56 pm |
Objective (: @ Con-tester.
McBrollocks: i think you already scared them away…i mean all that profanity and stuff …it may just piss off their god that they even talk to you.
Comment by Objective — July 24, 2008 @ 4:28 pm |
To all the bible thumpers out there, here is a nice link to how George Carlin breaks down your 10 commandments. Watch this if you want to have a laugh, and believe it or no, it also makes you think.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 4:30 pm |
Objective: It depends. Usually these cavemen run back to their caves after they have thrown their rocks and swinged their clubs, while they grunt and moan. I would love for them to stand and deliver for jesus, but unfortunately most of them are either to dumb, or they realize they don’t have much of an argument, so they choose not to be humiliated.
What I try to do is to get them thinking a bit. In the old days, they would just kill or lock people like me up. Now I will say what I think, challenge them to stand up for their invisible god, and to try to be rational in defending him.
But do they? Rationally? Haven’t seen one on this blog yet.
Come on you guys and girls, your honor god’s honor is at stake here. Don’t you think you guys/gals should stand up and defend him a bit?
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 4:39 pm |
LOL – you are idealistic. These people dont want to put anything additional into the pot. they already paid buckhan to pay god…and besides they have no need for reason…they have faith goddammit.
Comment by Objective — July 24, 2008 @ 5:11 pm |
Always an optimist.
It is sad though. If I believed in something like a god it would take a lot more than just faith. Especially when the guys running the show for god is such a bunch of losers. Out of all the dominees and priests and men of the cloth I have met in my life, most of them were weak men. The only thing that gave them power was their god and the fear he drives into people. The were not the kind of men I would follow or listen to. They are delusional. I remember asking one of them a question once when I was a child. I asked “how come you say the people from the other churches and believes are going to hell?” He said something like “because they are not really following god’s will the way they should, the way we do.”
So been marginally wrong also gets you a nice warm spot in hell.
It is time that people stop treating men of the cloth of any religion with instant respect. These guys were not chosen and employed by god himself. They chose their careers. A career of lying and cheating and covering up lies, dam lies, and religion.
Actually, I like that: “Lies, dam lies, and religion.”
Faith can only get you in serious trouble. As many a man who went to kill infidels realized when he was slain. Faith can get those you love into serious trouble, just like those who’s children got abused, raped, molested by men, from their church, found out. Faith is not something to be proud of. Faith is a sign of weakness of the mind. Can anyone give me an example of where faith is beneficial to our survival?
And there is a HUGE difference between faith and trust. Just in case someone wants to go down that road.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 5:30 pm |
Spoken like a true 5 year old.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 5:36 pm |
pandeist, are you referring to my postings?
If you are, is that the best you can come up with?
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 5:42 pm |
“Lies, damn lies, and religion.”
Very good. Out goes George Bernard Shaw with “lies, dams lies, and statistics”, and in comes the religious gadfly, McBrolloks.
Comment by Savage — July 24, 2008 @ 5:43 pm |
@con tester
“whimsical caprices and wishful vagaries ”
I am just trying to learn from you con tester, you are my hero after all.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 5:47 pm |
@mac
No mac, that is not the best I can do, at all.
That is but a diminutive slip of restraint.
I apologise for any inconvenience I may have caused.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 6:00 pm |
pandeist: No apology needed. But I would like to see your best shot. Don’t hold back a thing. Lets get it all out here in the open. Lets see what you’ve got to say.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 6:02 pm |
What makes you thing he will at last get a brainwave and get some sense out? Bet you a six-pack it will just be more drivel and uncoherent bullshit.
Comment by Savage — July 24, 2008 @ 6:08 pm |
pandeist wrote (#79 or thereabouts):
Then here’s lesson #1. It’s very, very short, consisting of two related matters: When asked to do so, fulfil your evidentiary obligations, else withdraw your claim. When asked a question, answer it as best you can.
Off you go, and learn it well, please. Be a daring fellow and show me that you’re not entirely unteachable.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 24, 2008 @ 6:14 pm |
What makes you thing, mac?
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 6:28 pm |
??????????????????
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 6:32 pm |
You are being [i]ncoherent Savage.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 6:33 pm |
“”You are being [i]ncoherent Savage.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 6:33 pm “”
Duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you mean: ” Unable to think or express one’s thoughts in a clear or orderly manner” maybe you should look at what you have been posting on this blog. If the shoe fits.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 6:39 pm |
So is posting #84 your best shot?
“”What makes you thing, mac?
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 6:28 pm “”
I don’t get it, what ever it means. “What makes you thing, mac?”
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 6:44 pm |
Maybe you are stoned pandeist. Some good old Swazi hey? Wish I had some. Why don’t you wait till tomorrow when your fingers can type what your brain wants to say. I am right here, waiting.
And one-liners really doesn’t do much when you try to explain something.
And start by answering some of those questions I put in my previous postings.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 6:58 pm |
Con-Tester
Since you and OB-jay had branded me and turned my innocent post into a godbot hunt, you should really see my comments as retoric.
The only answer you will get from me is this, at least Objective has the capacity to be honest with himself, unexercised as the skill may be.
In your case for one with such supercilious, chary fervour, it should be deplorable to not confess once you have been trounced.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 6:58 pm |
Now I really wish I had some of that Swazi.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 7:05 pm |
There you go yet again, pandeist, judging others by your own low standards and confusing your cheesy delusions with reality. Perhaps you should try some of that honesty you’ve hoodwinked yourself into believing you’re such an expert on. Maybe then you’ll stop making things up and misusing words you obviously don’t know the meaning of.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 24, 2008 @ 7:09 pm |
Ok I’ll try, help me CT!
Hey mac, I just had some of that Swazi! Does it show yet?
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 7:30 pm |
pandeist, why don’t you start with your post #84, clarify that, and then work your way back.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 7:44 pm |
Savage?
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 7:49 pm |
Man! This swazi is Savage. I was refering to the spelling mistake it was punny.
What makes you such a dick, mac.
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 7:58 pm |
so “What makes you thing, mac?” turns into “What makes you such a dick, mac.”
I have bad spelling, but that is terrible, especially since you seem to write pretty good in some postings.
To answer your question: “What makes you such a dick, mac.”
I am a nice guy, but I can’t stand bullshit. And I can’t stand people who make bullshit statements, and then get offended when I comment on those statements, and say I disrespect their religion or believe or faith. Fuck that, if you want to make outrageous statements, and demand that nobody can comment on them and ask you questions about it, you are being the irrational one, and this blog is no place for the likes of you.
I guess there is a long list of people who think I am a dick, but I don’t care. They can ask me anything anytime. The problem is, they can’t stand to reason in a rational way. They usually run back to their caves when the argument gets too hot for them. When they run out of the repertoire of answers and explanations that has been handed down to them by people just as ignorant as they are.
And you still haven’t said much. Those one liners are not considered as arguments.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 24, 2008 @ 8:09 pm |
pandeist wrote (#93 or thereabouts):
No, you won’t.
pandeist wrote (#93 or thereabouts):
No, I won’t.
A while back already, you crossed a threshold where anything you say is instantly dismissible as crap, and it’s a long haul back for you. Bon voyage, bouffon.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 24, 2008 @ 8:16 pm |
…on whichever road you choose.
Comment by Con-Tester — July 24, 2008 @ 8:20 pm |
I also dont care that you are a dick mac, you are funny, I think you hurt those girls’ feelings. Did it give you a warm fuzzy feeling?
Comment by pandeist — July 24, 2008 @ 8:20 pm |
Comment by Objective — July 25, 2008 @ 5:42 am |
Ok blokes. Stop feeding the fucking troll.
Comment by Renier — July 25, 2008 @ 6:04 am |
You have a comfortable little bridge, I think I will stay a while, you are very good at dishing out, but you dont like taking it.
Comment by pandeist — July 25, 2008 @ 8:21 am |
Then laid they hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Angus Buchan saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he hired Loftus Versveld and charged them money,
Saying, God gave me also this power, that whomsoever also buys the DVD of me praying and laying on hands, and possibly my book and movie, he may receive the Holy Ghost for the reasonable sum of R100 each: Cash or major credit card.
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be sold as a book, a DVD and purchased by the faithless and lazy with money.
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 8:18
Comment by Ehud - a lefthanded gentleman — July 25, 2008 @ 9:35 am |
Another example of selective quoting of the bible by a religionist to promote his own agenda.
This Al Lovejoy character argues (with proof offered from his holy book) that Angus is evil cause he pockets the money he makes by selling jesus to the ignorent masses.
IF, says the self confessed reborn Al, Angus had given the money to Al’s cause (the children) then it would have been ok to sell jesus (with proof quoted from his holy book) …of course with a little to his own pocket to defray expenses.
Comment by Objective — July 25, 2008 @ 11:59 am |
Damn, you really need to change your handle Objective, or is it one of those unsubstantiated pull thumb out of bum-suck rambling yellow satire things? I like it. I don’t think you managed to make one truthful statement, nope … I’m touched, truly touched. When someone goes to the effort to get it that wrong, I know they tried really hard … gee, I must be doing something right … hahahahaha, thanx for the support!
Comment by Al Lovejoy — July 25, 2008 @ 12:09 pm |
Objective #105: “..of course with a little to his own pocket to defray expenses.”
And expenses do not come cheap. Just to go and visit the underprivileged needs wheels man. And these snazzy 4×4 BM 5’s are just the minimum standard for a man of the looks and attitude of Al. So when there is no money left to give to the children, why, there is always god who will provide. (God being brainwashed followers of the Buchan and other cults.) Of course by that time Al has got other “wants” to attend to, so, I’m sorry, the poor children will just have to sleep cold and hungry until All thinks up another scheme.
Comment by Savage — July 25, 2008 @ 12:22 pm |
Come Objective let’s break down your little diatribe shall we:
1. Al Lovejoy is not a character, I’m actually real – it’s in my ID book.
2. ‘…his holy book…’, my holy book? Are you nuts? I wrote Acid Alex, get with the program … I don’t think it is a very holy treatise.
3. ‘…self confessed reborn…’, NOT GUILTY!!! I made no such confession your honour, the thought police are lying … read Acid Alex.
4. ‘…Angus had given the money to Al’s cause…’, are you utterly tartie? When and where did I suggest such a thing you fucking creep.
5. ‘with of course a little to his own pocket to defray expenses’, go fuck yourself six ways from Sunday you sad cunt, do I sound like a manic street preacher to lazy to work and feed my kids?
Let’s put money on it that you have “faith” in your Objective “scientific infallability” instead – and do me personal favour, grow up first
Comment by Al Lovejoy — July 25, 2008 @ 12:27 pm |
Whoopee, it must be International Adopt-a-Slime-Mould Day!
Comment by Con-Tester — July 25, 2008 @ 12:43 pm |
In 2006, researchers at the University of Southampton and the University of Kobe reported that they had built a six-legged robot whose movement was remotely controlled by a Physarum slime mold. The mold directed the robot into a dark corner most similar to its natural habitat.
I get it … “into a dark corner” but seriously “remotely controlled by a Physarum slime mold”??? Wow, you can say that backwards – WOW!!! Now that is awesome science, maybe dishing out the ad hominem body shots in the religious arena sort of does do that for a match between real science and the real Christ – it sure as hell aint neutral … I am honoured to be a part of this bout, especially since there is no referee in sight and fuck Queensbury Rules – I’m a street fighter
Comment by Al Lovejoy — July 25, 2008 @ 12:54 pm |
Savage, you been following the whole “cracker” thing over at Pharyngula? I changed my mind about the moderates. They are friggen nuts and just as bad as the fundies. Death threats over a cracker…
Comment by Renier — July 25, 2008 @ 1:23 pm |
Sorry, I know we’re supposed to be kicking the shit out of each other, but I just can’t get the picture of a gospel singing Moir’s Raspberry Flavoured Jelly driving a BMW5 4×4 to Loftus and cutting off a vicious Lemon Flavoured Pick ‘n Pay (Inspired by U) Jelly driving a rusty Mazda with a “Scientist’s do it with string theory” bumper sticker and who is showing the wobbly yuppy creep zap signs … TGIF
Comment by Al Lovejoy — July 25, 2008 @ 1:27 pm |
The priest is preaching from a shallow grave, he counts his money and he paints you saved. – Rodrigues
Comment by pandeist — July 25, 2008 @ 1:34 pm |
The only depressing detail of the responses is that the White percentage isn’t higher. So what else would be the problem.
Comment by Hektor — July 25, 2008 @ 3:26 pm |
Hektor can’t help you with that, but there’s a very opinionated chap who trolls around and likes being called Baas here, actually Oubaas … I think you can address him as: “Baas”, “Ou Baas”, “My Larnie” or “My Kroon” – with enough deference to his historical white Afrikaner supremacy, I feel quite certain he will probably be able to tell what else would be the problem … Me? I just call him Ouass and be done with it.
Comment by Al Lovejoy — July 25, 2008 @ 3:48 pm |
To come back to Angus Buchan: I don’t know who of you have seen the laughable performance of the editor of Rapport, Tim du Plessis, and the chief propagandist-cum-publicist-via-Beeld, Neels Jackson, on KykNet’s program the other night. Trying to explain the phenomenon of Buchan drawing such huge crowds.
Jackson calls himself a journalist, but is nothing more than a religious writer who two thousands years ago would have made a very capable writer of the Bible: he is just as uncritical and just as superstitious.
Not Du Plessis or Jackson touched upon the real reasons for Buchan’s success: that he is propagated as the new saviour to the readers of Rapport and Beeld by those publications, without one word of critical analysis about these type of preachers à la Elmer Gantry, TD Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer etc.
No wonder Afrikaners were so easily duped by Bible-thumpers and Afrikaans newspaper editors to believe that apartheid was sanctioned by their god. Once again they do the same thing!
Comment by George Claassen — July 25, 2008 @ 3:51 pm |
“No wonder Afrikaners were so easily duped by Bible-thumpers and Afrikaans newspaper editors to believe that apartheid was sanctioned by their god. Once again they do the same thing!
Comment by George Claassen — July 25, 2008 @ 3:51 pm ”
Now Buchan is the new messiah, at a small price of course. It’s a big business. It takes a lot of people, who all jump on the band wagon, because there is a crap load of money to be made here. Lets face it. This religious revival phenomena is making everyone who comes aboard millions. Millions of TV viewers when there is any mention of Buchan, millions of news paper copies sold when waco jaco and Buchan is on the cover of those newspapers. The editors don’t really care as long as they sell lots of news papers. Sensational news sells. Religion sells. Especially in South Africa, and especially with the Afrikaners.
Comment by McBrolloks — July 25, 2008 @ 4:06 pm |
Renier #111 : “Savage, you been following the whole “cracker” thing over at Pharyngula? I changed my mind about the moderates. They are friggen nuts and just as bad as the fundies. Death threats over a cracker…”
Renier, yes, I’ve been following the drama and you are right; the moderates are just as nuts as the fundies. These people are one hell of a lot more dangerous than I thought. Anybody who is interested, see the link below; scary!
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php#more
Comment by Savage — July 25, 2008 @ 4:23 pm |
Very good. I like the way he ends the post.
“Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity’s knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind.” – PZ Myers
Comment by McBrolloks — July 25, 2008 @ 4:43 pm |
[...] way to believe in all sorts of crap Posted on 26 July 2008 by harebell Prometheus Unbound highlights recent events unfolding in South [...]
Pingback by Religion opens the way to believe in all sorts of crap « voice from the pack — July 26, 2008 @ 3:22 am |
Hoe groot was u steekproef? Hoe is die seleksie gedoen? Daar is tog sekere vereistes waaraan ondersoeke moet voldoen om betroubaar te wees?
Hoe op aarde kan u u bevindings dan net so neem en van toepassing maak op dit wat op Loftus gebeur het, en dan gee u uself uit as ‘n wetenskaplike? As ek die opmerkings hier deurlees, kan ek self ‘n paar gevolgtrekkings maak….. Ek neem u bevindings werklik met ‘n GROOT knip sout.
Comment by Hendrik — July 31, 2008 @ 6:49 pm |
Hi Hendrik! Hoe gaan dit?
Wat presies pla jou van George se gevolgtrekking? Dit sal nice wees indien ons dit kan ontleed en bespreek.
Comment by Renier — August 1, 2008 @ 8:41 am |
“”As ek die opmerkings hier deurlees, kan ek self ‘n paar gevolgtrekkings maak….. Ek neem u bevindings werklik met ‘n GROOT knip sout.”
Comment by Hendrik — July 31, 2008 @ 6:49 pm “”
Dis wat hierdie blog hier voor is Hendrik. Maak asb. jou gevolgtrekkings.
Comment by McBrolloks — August 1, 2008 @ 2:09 pm |
What is science ? Is science always fact or is it sometimes human interpretation of something they don’t understand. If you call it science, does it then mean that it is
therefore truth?
I believe when something is tested in a laboratory, with the control experiments included, we may call the findings thereof “science”. Unfortunately we have millions of people out there that see themselves as scientific thinkers, but does not understand the difference between science and theory. Science is findings that resulted from proper scientific tests.
Scientific theories is human interpretation of something they do not understand. So many people believe in scientific theories, thinking that they are intelligent and not realising that there is nothing intelligent about it. Now you get some of these people
attacking religious people for their believes whilst being totally ignorant of the fact that their own believes in theories is nothing other than religion. These people often find satisfaction in using fowl language and really try their best to offend those that they attack.
The “Big Bang” theory and the many theories on “Evolution” is just theories, and often absurd theories, not tested scientifically, but many ignorant people follow these teaching religiously. Most Christians (even the false ones) admit that they follow a religion. To my mind those self proclaimed scientists that pretend they know it all just because they cling to a couple of theories, and are therefore inherently religious, are the ignorant ones.
Here is a thought for the intelligent out there. Lets take that piece of flesh in ones scull that is called a brain. It is the most astonishing computer system. Everybody uses only a fraction of its capacity, and still, it is amazing to see what humans have accomplished with it. Now the question is: Is consciousness generated by the brain?
If you are the type that are quick to assume things and then call it science, your answer may be that the brain generates it. On the other hand, if you are wiser than that, you will realise that nobody has ever been able to define consciousness. We don’t know what it is.
We all know that it exists and that it is something which enables us to experience our
surroundings and even things that is somewhere within us, referred to as feelings, or emotions. Chemicals in your body does influence emotions, and the brain does operate
by means of chemical end electrical occurrences, but that can not make anybody conscious of anything. To be conscious is to experience!
Any trustworthy scientist will tell you that man does not know what consciousness is.
Science has never been able to define it. Why can we not understand it? Simply because it is not matter. It is that one thing we have that we can not explain in terms of matter, but we all know of its existence.
If we can not define consciousness, then it will be utterly ignorant to assume that there is no other realm than the material realm, in existence. That means that it is possible that a spiritual realm exists, and if it exists then it is possible that some people are conscious of it.
Have you ever been watching people in a public area and then you notice that one person that just radiates something, that makes him or her stand out in the crowd? Chances are that if you talk to that person, you will find that he or she loves Jesus Christ. (I don’t refer to people who are simply friendly or have a great smile, I refer to people who radiates that something different, that can not be explained in words.)
To all the sceptics when it comes to Christianity, I wish to point out that yes, the false profits are out there. Those who’s main concern it is to make money and who love the show’s they put up. You see our Bible has been warning us against these people for years, and I must say that if I were in the shoes of an atheist, I most probably would become more atheistic after listening to some of these people. On the other hand, those who truly love Christ and lives in His presence bears fruit of another type. You will find that the true followers of Christ are loving, caring people who will often give their last to help someone. These are people who does not boast, instead of judging people they pray for them, and they rarely if ever are depressed. Although they believe in God’s mercy when it comes to their finances, they are not “prosperity junkies”
If you do not believe in Christ, don’t judge those who does. Rather battle it out within your own soul. Look at your own eagerness to judge others. Ask yourself the question whether your ego gets a boost when you call yourself a scientific thinker. Look within and you might find that you never knew the real reasons why you love it so much to attack Christians.
As for the issue around Mr Angus Buchan at Loftus, I think he is doing a great job. In my opinion he is definitely not after money, and he does not go for the show. His sermon is marked by clean and clear advice to his audience, instead of a message that is aimed at making you think you will become a millionaire if you give money to him. He also does not depend on the “show”, but rather gives you a message that you can take home and apply in your own live, for the good. Certainly his message of forgiveness, peace and mutual respect is something we need in Africa. Can it be that somebody hates a Christian so much, that they are unable to find common ground on issues like forgiveness, peace and mutual respect, or is it that these people don’t want these things to manifest in South Africa.
I hope and pray that all you atheist judges of Christ’s people will experience things in a wider spectrum, so that you will realise that other people might have something that you don’t, and that you may also find it.
I really care and wish I could do more to make you understand.
Thank you..
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 1, 2008 @ 10:15 pm |
Andre van Coppenhagen #124: “Scientific theories is human interpretation of something they do not understand. “
Not so. Your understanding of the concept, “scientific theory” is totally wrong. A scientific theory is a well tested and verified description of one or other phenomena of Nature. Scientific theories are developed by utilizing the “scientific method” which is 1. observation, 2. postulation, 3. experimentation, and 4. verification and thus acceptance of the theory; or modification of the postulate; or rejection of the postulate.
The scientific process is a never ending quest to describe Nature. Newton’s law of gravity had been verified for 250 years until Einstein came along.
Andre van Coppenhagen #124: “The “Big Bang” theory and the many theories on “Evolution” is just theories, and often absurd theories, not tested scientifically, but many ignorant people follow these teaching religiously.”
Again, not so. These two theories have been tested many times and come out trumps every time. Your understanding of “tested scientifically” is again, totally wrong. Why don’t you read about how evolution has been tested and verified, as well as the Big Bang theory? And I mean reading scientific literature, not one or other pseudo-scientific crap dished up by the Discovery Institute and its like.
Another misconception about scientists you have is this: No scientist has ever said he or she knows everything. As a mater of fact scientists almost always indicate what we don’t know. But as we go along Nature’s secrets are slowly revealed to us. For instance, with the molecular biological research of the last 20 years the theory of evolution has now unquestionably verified that we all developed from a common ancestor. That is a vital nail in the creationists’ coffin; but do you think they (the creationists) read of the research? Not on your life mate, and that is precisely what you are doing; being blind and death to what is happening in the scientific world.
Comment by Savage — August 2, 2008 @ 6:48 am |
Andre van Coppenhagen #124: “Scientific theories is human interpretation of something they do not understand. “
Please tell me what do scientists find difficult to understand? If you think evolution is one and the Big Bang is another, you are totally wrong with both. Evolution is a very well understood and tested theory. Read Sean Carroll’s book, “The Making of the Fittest, DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution”, to open your eyes on the molecular research biologists are conducting today. Also read, “Big Bang”, by Simon Singh to understand (one aspect among numerous) why there are approximately 80 % hydrogen and 20 % helium in the observable Universe.
Andre van Coppenhagen #124: “To my mind those self proclaimed scientists that pretend they know it all just because they cling to a couple of theories, and are therefore inherently religious, are the ignorant ones.”
Scientists don’t cling to theories. Theories explain Nature and are constantly tested by experimentation. Show me where, scientifically, evolution and the Big Bang” have been shown to be wrong? You cannot except if you rely on the pseudo-scientific shit of the creationists.
Andre van Coppenhagen #124: “These people often find satisfaction in using fowl language and really try their best to offend those that they attack.”
Scientists usually do not use fowl language against religion. All scientists do is to point out the unscientific nature of religion. Religion wants to be reckoned as fact, but it is not. Not ONE religious claim has been scientifically verified. Your claim that, “Have you ever been watching people in a public area and then you notice that one person that just radiates something, that makes him or her stand out in the crowd? Chances are that if you talk to that person, you will find that he or she loves Jesus Christ.”, is as unscientific as you can get. What chances? Who has tested and verified it?
Comment by Savage — August 2, 2008 @ 8:26 am |
Andre skryf in #124: “I really care and wish I could do more to make you understand”.
Dankie. Ek weet jy bedoel dit opreg – dis voorwaar moeilik om die dinge wat mens glo te verduidelik. Veral as mens Afrikaans is, en as jou dogters jou elke aand soebat vir ‘n storie.
Ek het hierdie stuk vrylik vertaal (en aangepas), en dis ‘n lekker slaapstorie vir kinders. Hoop jy hou daarvan, en vertrou dit sal almal help om beter te verstaan wat hulle glo.
(Verskoon maar: Dis vinnig neergeskryf, en ek het geen groot poging aangewend om besondere Afrikaans te besig nie, veral wat die (nie) gebruik van leestekens betref).
Eendag lank, lank gelede, toe spoke nog kon asemhaal en woorde soos gedagtes deur die lug kon vlieg, toe hartseer nog ‘n onvertaalde sprokie was en boeke met hulself kon praat, eendag so lank gelede was daar ‘n god. Hierdie god kon alles doen wat sy wou doen, en sy het alles geweet wat sy wou weet. Sy was so slim dat sy die woord slim uitgedink het, en sy was so belangrik dat ons van nou af haar naam met ‘n hoofletter gaan spel.
Omdat Sy alles geweet het, het Sy ook geweet dat daar niemand soos Sy is nie. Niemand het geweet dat die plek waar Sy woon die hemel is nie. En omdat Sy geweet het dat niemand anders dit weet nie, het Sy besluit om ander wesens te maak sodat hulle kan weet dat Sy die belangrikste van almal is. Wat help dit tog om te weet dat jy die belangrikste is as daar niemand anders is waarmee jy jou kan vergelyk nie? Absoluut niks nie!
Sy het toe besluit om ander wesens te maak sodat Sy nie meer alleen hoef te wees nie. Hierdie wesens was kleiner en ligter, hulle het vlerke gehad, en Sy het hulle engele genoem. God was nie meer alleen nie, en het saam met die engele wat Sy gemaak het in die hemel gewoon. God was die koning van die hemel en het op ‘n troon gesit, en die engele wat Sy gemaak het, het haar aanbid en gedien.
God was gelukkig. Maar net soos wat God belangriker was as al die engele, was nie al die engele ewe belangrik nie. Die belangriker engele het God aartsengele genoem. Hierdie belangrike engele was mooier en slimmer as die ander engele, en hulle kon dinge doen wat die ander engele nie kon doen nie.
Lucy was een van die aartsengele. Haar naam beteken ligdraer.
Lucy was baie gewild omdat sy mooi musiek gemaak het, maar sy het trots geword van al die bewondering en het toe probeer om God se plek in te neem. ‘n Derde van al die engele het haar gehelp om God se plek in te neem, maar God was nie beindruk nie en het baie kwaad geword.
Sy het vir Lucy en haar engele uit die hemel gegooi en hulle het beland in ‘n plek onder die hemel. Ons weet nie waar dit was nie, maar ‘n baie lang tyd later, toe gedagtes nog nie woorde gehad het nie en woorde nog nie lippe nie, het lucy weer verskyn in die vorm van ‘n slang op ‘n planeet met die naam aarde.
God het intussen hierdie planeet gemaak. Sy het die heelal ook gemaak, en sy het pas haar meesterstuk, die mens, voltooi. Sy het natuurlik ook al die ander dinge gemaak. God het die mens gemaak om op die aarde te woon en om dit te geniet, maar veral om oor die diere te heers. God het vir die vrou gemaak, maar ook ‘n man om haar geselskap te hou. Sy het vir hulle alle beheer oor die planeet gegee, maar met een voorwaarde: Hulle mag nie van die vrugte van die die boom van kennis eet nie.
God het vir hulle gese dat die boom giftig is, en dat hulle sal doodgaan as hulle van die vrugte eet. Die vrou se naam was Eva, en die man se naam was Adam. Hulle kon nie doodgaan nie. Lucy het toe as ‘n slang verskyn aan Adam. Sy het vir Adam probeer verlei om van die vrugte van die vrugte te eet wat God hulle verbied het.
Sy het vir hom gese dat God nie die hele waarheid gepraat het nie. Adam was lus vir die vrugte, maar hy het geweet dat hy nie daarvan mag eet nie. Hy het toe gedink dat Lucy miskien reg is, en het ‘n hap geneem. Hy het ook vir Eva daarvan gegee, wat die res opgeeet het.
Hulle het skielik besef dat hulle kaal is, en het gaan wegkruip in die bosse. God het vir hulle kom soek, maar hulle was te skaam om te voorskyn te tree. Toe God vir Eva gekry het, het sy dadelik geweet wat gebeur het. God het kwaad vir haar gevra: “Wie het vir jou gese jy kan eet van die verbode vrugte?”.
“Adam het dit vir my gegee”, het Eva gese, en Adam het weer op sy beurt die slang geblameer. God was so kwaad dat sy vir Eva en Adam uit die paradys gejaag het. Sy het vir hulle gese het dat hulle van nou af sal ly en doodgaan, en vir die slang het sy gese dat sy van nou af sal kruip en stof eet.
Eva en Adam en was nie meer onsterflik nie. Hulle het kinders gekry, en hulle kinders het kinders gekry. So het dit aangehou vir baie geslagte voordat hulle uiteindelik dood is, en geleidelik het die planeet vol geword van sterflike mense. Lucy en haar engele was stil vir duisende jare. Niks is oor hulle gese nie, maar God het ‘n plan gehad om vir altyd van haar en haar knegte ontslae te raak.
Sy het besluit om self die planeet te kom bewoon in die vorm van ‘n vrou. Die vrou se naam was Jessie.
Lucy was egter baie slim en het probeer om Jessie te oortuig om haar te aanbid in plaas van God, maar Jessie was nie goedgelowig soos Eva nie. Sy was eintlik God en kon mos nie teen haarself optree nie!
Lucy en haar engele het toe ook besluit om binne mense te woon, maar hulle het ‘n probleem gehad: Jessie het dit altyd reggekry om hulle uit te dryf. Woedend het Lucy besluit om ‘n plan te maak teen God. Sy het die owerhede oorreed om vir Jessie dood te maak deur vir hulle te oortuig dat Jessie ‘n bedreiging vir hulle veiligheid was, maar min het Lucy geweet dat dit nog die heeltyd God se plan was. Lucy was maar net ‘n akteur in God se verhaal.
Jessie is gekruisig, maar sy het na drie dae uit die graf uit opgestaan.
Om te wys hoe goed God is vir die mense wat Sy gemaak het, het Sy besluit om die straf wat Sy aan Adam en Eva vir hul ongehoorsaamheid gegee het, op haarself te neem deur Jessie te laat sterf. Sy het toe haar mag oor Lucy bewys deur Jessie weer lewendig te maak.
Lucy het verwerp en uitgeput gevoel, maar was nog steeds vasberade om alles in haar mag te doen om teen God se gesag te baklei. Saam met haar weermag was sy die groot oorsaak vir alle vorme van kwaad wat die mensdom getref het, veral deur haat en traak my nie agtigheid teenoor God aan te moedig.
God wag egter nog steeds, want Sy het ‘n finale plan om Lucy, haar weermag, en vir almal wat nie vir haar erken nie – veral nie haar goeie daad deur vir Jessie te kruisig nie – te vernietig.
‘n Verskriklike en wrede bestaan wag vir elke rebelse wese, een waarin pyn en lyding vir elke oomblik gevoel sal word vir ewig. Lucy weet wat vir haar wag, maar veg steeds voort. Sy kan nie anders nie, want dis die doel waarvoor sy geskep is. Sy het geen finale gesag nie, en loop soos ‘n opgewende speelding in baie rigtings. Sy moet heeltyd opgewen word, en uiteindelik sal die speelding verbrand word.
Comment by Oubaas — August 2, 2008 @ 4:03 pm |
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 1, 2008 @ 10:15 pm – “Most Christians (even the false ones) admit that they follow a religion.”
Very nice. Funny how they ALL read the same old book, but they are the first to condemn each other to hell. Of all the churches out there, of all the christian sects out there, nonoe of them agree that they are ALL going to heaven. They all condemn each other to eternal doom.
As for admiting they follow a religion, duh…………
Lets look at the defenition of religion:
“A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience. The term “religion” refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.”
If anyone who believes in christ denies he is following a religion, then that person is nutts!!!!
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 1, 2008 @ 10:15 pm – “Although they believe in God’s mercy when it comes to their finances, they are not “prosperity junkies””
Well mate, then your god must hate those hundred of millions of extremely poor christians all over the world, who live in absolute poverty, who’s children are dying from starvation and curable diseases, and for who daily life is a huge struggle for survival. Is that the mercy of your god? If he was fair, why would he at least give them the basics?
Try to answer that question for me Andre van Coppenhagen. Or does god’s mercy only apply to the ones that are better off? I bet those poor people pray everyday to god and jesus to help them in their suffering. How come those hundreds of millions of prayers go unanswered? Or does your god like to see them suffer?
To me this is Andre van Coppenhagen’s funniest comment. This totally exposed him as a jesus freak:
“Have you ever been watching people in a public area and then you notice that one person that just radiates something, that makes him or her stand out in the crowd? Chances are that if you talk to that person, you will find that he or she loves Jesus Christ. (I don’t refer to people who are simply friendly or have a great smile, I refer to people who radiates that something different, that can not be explained in words.)”
I know what you mean Andre. I see those kind around a lot. They have this glazed look in their eyes. They are not in control of their lives anymore. They don’t take responsibilty for their lives any more. They believe jesus has a plan for them and he is “behind the wheel.” And, oh my god, don’t get them started. Jesus is the only thing they want to talk about. And how he died for us all. Quite sick if you ask me. A dead guy nailed to a cross as their logo.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 1, 2008 @ 10:15 pm
“As for the issue around Mr Angus Buchan at Loftus, I think he is doing a great job. In my opinion he is definitely not after money, and he does not go for the show.”
Your new Messiah is a fraud Andre. Why do you need him if you have the bible and jesus and your god? Why do you fundies need messengers from god? Did god hand pick him? How do you know? Or is anyone who talkes what seems like sense to you “the real McCoy”? Directly from the heavens above, sent by god and his son jesus, to lead us out of our misery?
My final question is this: If you really believe that your god is great and that he loves everyone who opens their hearts to him, why is there so many millions of his followers who are living in absolute poverty and misery, the likes you can’t even imagine. I have been to some of the poorest places in the world, and there is no god there. There is nothing but a daily miserable struggle to survive just another day and another week. Where is your silent and passive god?
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 4:14 pm |
Goeie storie Oubaas!!!!
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 4:30 pm |
To Savage in #125 and #126
The fact that scientific theories are tested and verified is one thing. The fact that the Big Bang and Evolution theories has changed constantly during the last 50 years is something else. When can we accept it as truth, in stead of “tested and verified”? I also don’t see how these theories come out trumps every time, if it keeps on changing.
Let me give you another example of why I can not buy the Big bang theory. Every time I come across the “Big bang” theory it explains that it could not have occurred through the design of an intelligent creator. Can you tell me how science has established that an uncontrolled explosion could lead to the creation of order. Any uncontrolled explosion or “bang”, I can imagine, will result in anarchy, whilst a single cell is more complicated than the city of New York. Considering this, together with the fact that I mentioned before, that science has never been able to define consciousness, tells me that there are more reason to believe that an Intelligent Force had to be responsible for the “Big Bang”, than there would be reason for believing it all happened automatically.(I surely believe that when God created the universe, it was a Big Bang. Its obvious, the universe is huge.)
Why the existence of an Intelligent power behind it all is discarded by scientists outright, makes no sense.
I am not against science or scientists. What I am against is the length that some scientists will go to, just to prove there is no God. How come most of them believe that there may be other intelligent beings out there, but they fail to consider the possibility that there is a real Mighty and Extremely intelligent God out there. Many believe that there are other realms than the material one in existence,(hence our consciousness), but the moment you put a God in there, they suddenly freak out.
Irrespective of the amount of hydrogen and helium in the universe, that does not rule out the existence of God. The harmony in the universe, and in everybody’s body, rule in, the existence of God though. There are definitely more reason to believe that whole creation has intelligent design behind it, than there is to believe it all just occurred.
I am glad to hear that scientists does not think they know it all. It is just strange that some of them (definitely not all of them), hates the idea so much, that there is someone much more intelligent and powerful than us, out there.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 7:26 pm |
Aan Oubaas in #127
Oubaas, jy het seker probeer, maar jou skrywe bevat geen intelligente deelname aan die debat nie.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 7:29 pm |
The thing I find extraordinary, is that people like Andre van Coppenhagen believes in an intelligent designer, AND they believe in jesus and the god from the bible, and they believe he or it is one and the same thing.
If there is, for arguments sake, an intelligent designer out there, and he created EVERYTHING, and he is the god from the bible too, then why is he such a prick?
“”The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
So says Richard Dawkins.”"
Why does he not just eradicate poverty, disease, unequality, war, disasters etc?
It is a HUGE cliche to state that the god from the bible, and the intelligent designer, if there is one, is one and the same thing.
I wonder how much Andre van Coppenhagen knows about evolution?
I think that if there is an intelligent designer out there, ( I don’t), then he would laugh his arse off if he knew some organic specie out there in his creation (humans), compare him with such an arsehole as the god from the bible.
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 8:00 pm |
To McBrollocks in #128
First of all, it is not a Christian’s job to condemn people to hell. Anybody who does, does not read their Bible. God will be the judge of that.
Christ warned us a long time ago that people will call us “nuts”, so your statement that “if anybody who believes in Christ, denies he is following a religion, then that person is nuts”, is nothing new.
McBrollocks, is it really the Christians of this world that is suffering ? In my opinion it is mostly people who believe in their ancestors who suffer, but let me answer your question fully. Man was created to rule the universe, and the universe was given to him. This world suffers because of the way humans, (including those that think, they think rationally ), manages it.
With regard to your comment when referring to Angus Buchan, “your new Messiah is a fraud Andre”. You’ve got it wrong McBrollocks, Jesus Christ is my Messiah.
McBrollocks, why do you deny me the right to be part of a gathering with those that share my believes. Does this mean I should deny you the right to take part in an atheists gathering? Yes I do have a Bible, and yes I do have Jesus Christ. This does not mean you can prescribe to me which gatherings I should attend.
It is strange how humans causes suffering and are mismanaging the world, taking it through wars, causing poverty through the shear greed of some, and then they want to blame God, who they don’t even believe in.
McBollocks, man has a spiritual side, and that is the one reason why we are capable to experience things in a conscious way, as I mentioned before. If you don’t believe it, that is your choice. God never force us to believe in Him. Some of us finds Him in the spirit, and some does not.
Well, whilst you enjoy it so much to attack us Christians, how about attacking Satan’s religion. You will definitely find a lot of ground for criticism. If you are against religion, and do not hate God, because you just don’t believe in Him, then you should criticise all religions. Especially Satan’s one which is real bad.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 8:19 pm |
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
“”First of all, it is not a Christian’s job to condemn people to hell. Anybody who does, does not read their Bible. God will be the judge of that.”"
Well, I have heard many many times where other christians condemn christians from other churches to hell. Protestants against catholics, evangelicals against everyone else, etc. etc. etc. I have personally heard it said from the pulpit.
“”Christ warned us a long time ago that people will call us “nuts”, so your statement that “if anybody who believes in Christ, denies he is following a religion, then that person is nuts”, is nothing new.”"
My mistake there Andre, it was a grammar mistake, what I meant to write there was the following: ““if anybody believes in Christ, and denies he is following a religion, then that person is nuts”
Sorry about that. I only noticed it after it was posted.
Andre, this is a very naive statement you just made:
“McBrollocks, is it really the Christians of this world that is suffering ? In my opinion it is mostly people who believe in their ancestors who suffer…”
The world is full of christians who suffer very much, everyday. But do you mean that it is mostly people who do not believe in your god who suffer the most and are the poorest of all?
Andre wrote: “With regard to your comment when referring to Angus Buchan, “your new Messiah is a fraud Andre”. You’ve got it wrong McBrollocks, Jesus Christ is my Messiah.”
Good for you. So what is Angus then? A profit? A preacher? Was he hand picked by god? What makes him an authority to speak for god?
Funny statement this of your Andre: “McBrollocks, why do you deny me the right to be part of a gathering with those that share my believes. Does this mean I should deny you the right to take part in an atheists gathering? Yes I do have a Bible, and yes I do have Jesus Christ. This does not mean you can prescribe to me which gatherings I should attend.”
Ha-ha, I never denied you a thing. You can do what ever you want, attend what ever meetings you want. You christians always go loooooooking for that “persecution”. Where did I write anything of the sort?
You say you have a bible, which part do you believe when you read it? Or do you take it all literary?
I like this statement of your Andre: “It is strange how humans causes suffering and are mismanaging the world, taking it through wars, causing poverty through the shear greed of some, and then they want to blame God, who they don’t even believe in.”
I never thought for a second god has anything to do with the suffering in the world. I merely asked you how come your mighty god, if he did exist, doesn’t do anything about it? If he is so mighty and powerful, why doesn’t he do something about it? Anything? He is mighty silent for such a powerful creator.
Andre wrote: “McBollocks, man has a spiritual side, and that is the one reason why we are capable to experience things in a conscious way, as I mentioned before. If you don’t believe it, that is your choice. God never force us to believe in Him. Some of us finds Him in the spirit, and some does not.”
But this mighty creator of yours is going to send me to hell because I chose not to believe in him, right? What a sick fucking wanker, to banish a poor soul like mine to eternal hell and suffering, because I am too ignorant to believe in him. Me and billions of others. Do you think hell is going to be big enough for all of us there? Enjoy your lovely eternity in heaven. But can you trust a sick bastard like that to give you a place in heaven? He might go back on his “word” or change the rules another 1000 years down the line.
Andre wrote: “Well, whilst you enjoy it so much to attack us Christians, how about attacking Satan’s religion. You will definitely find a lot of ground for criticism. If you are against religion, and do not hate God, because you just don’t believe in Him, then you should criticise all religions. Especially Satan’s one which is real bad.”
You see, here you christians go again. Satan is the real enemy! I actually do criticize all religions. You christians are just the biggest pain in my arse. You want your ID and creationist bullshit toaght in our schools, and universities. Than wanker and his cult, Shofar, who believes they are doing god’s good work, are nothing but a sect/cult, who would resort to burning people as witchcraft if they could.
Don’t feel special please. My sights are not set on you personally.
Please answer me these questions:
1.)Do you believe that the earth is 6000 years old?
2.)Do you believe your intelligent designer and your god from the bible is one and the same “thing”?
3.)Do you believe all these awesome inventions made by science, for example in the field of medicine, is because of god guiding the scientists’ work?
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 8:56 pm |
To McBrollocs in # 132
McBrollocks, certainly you must have had a boss before or have one, that you report to.
That is acceptable in our society. Well , people in the old testament were also held accountable before God. As in any boss, subordinate situation, people bear the consequences for their disobedience. That does not necessarily make the boss cruel or bad. Only difference is that God is almighty and perfect and therefore also perfect in terms of justice. I don’t think that you have ever read the old testament, but if you do, you will see that God has forgiven his people every time they repented from their disobedience. That’s more you can say about some human bosses or courts of law.
If you study the old testament you will see that although God is righteous , he is also loving and always ready to forgive.
Apart from God being loving, he is also a gentle God. It is for this reason that if anyone do not wish to have Him as their God, He will not force Himself onto you. In general, the world does not want God around, and therefore the world can not blame God for what’s happening to it.
Anyhow, God is Spirit, and man has a spirit to. The Bible teaches me to serve God in spirit. I found Him in the spirit, talk and listen to him in the spirit and love Him in the spirit. That is a dimension some people do not wish to be involved in. That’s their choice.
The mere fact that it is mostly Christians that get attacked for their believes, tells me that I have the right believes. It seems that somewhere in the subconscious of people who hate God, they know who’s right.
Why is it that when people swear, the don’t say “satan”, or “krishna” or “budha” ?
Search your soul my friend. There is a reason why atheists attack Christians specifically, with such unnatural and overboard vigour.
God bless!
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 8:58 pm |
Andre, I did read quite a lot of the old testament when I was a kid. And most of it was pretty enjoyable. The stories are fascinating, especially to an innocent child. Later it was shoved down my troaght, by the schools. I hated all the bullshit. You see, the bible is a very good work of fiction. It has just about everything in it.
you also wrote: “If you study the old testament you will see that although God is righteous , he is also loving and always ready to forgive.”
That is the biggest bunch of crap you have written on this blog. Makes me wonder, have you ever read your bible?
Did you miss or skip the part where all the cruel things happen in god’s name. Read this again: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” – Richard Dawkins
That sounds more like the old testament and your god to me.
Andre wrote: “The mere fact that it is mostly Christians that get attacked for their believes, tells me that I have the right believes. It seems that somewhere in the subconscious of people who hate God, they know who’s right.”
Ha, you are so wrong! People have been butchering other people for thousands of years, and blamed their difference in god’s for the massacres. You christians have persecuted other religions for thousands of years. You have murdered, stole and killed in the name of your god. You have even done it to other christians. Do you know anything about history at all?
Andre wrote: “Why is it that when people swear, the don’t say “satan”, or “krishna” or “budha” ?”
Fuck, I don’t know, but does it prove a god dam thing?
Andre wrote: “Search your soul my friend. There is a reason why atheists attack Christians specifically, with such unnatural and overboard vigour.”
Yes, of course there is. You wankers try to force “the good news” down everyone else’s troaghts. In the schools, in the universities, everywhere you guys can. You are a dangerous bunch of people. Very delusional, and very dangerous.
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 9:25 pm |
To McBrollocs in # 134
I’ll be glad to answer your questions.
Let me first clear something. True followers of Jesus Christ will never want to burn or harm anybody. You must realise that throughout history people have been abusing God, as a platform from which they could exercise their own evil. I do not see myself as one of those. May faith is an honest personal conviction that rejects those evil things in church history.
You ask why God does not do something about all the suffering on earth, although he did not cause the suffering. Well, its very simple, the world rejected Him,
Answer to you questions.
1. “Do you believe that earth is 6000 years old?”
I believe that no human being knows the age of the earth. Scientist had different figures quoted over the last 50 years, but I prefer to be honest and say “I don’t know”
2. “Do you believe your intelligent Designer and your God from the Bible is one and the same”
I believe that the God of the Bible “Ye-ho-vaw”, is the intelligent designer, and that the Bible was recorded through the ages, to help us human minds understand Him”
Have you ever thought that you are like a god to you dog. The poor animal cannot comprehend what you are doing when you get into your car to go to work in the mornings. He does not understand the things humans do, simply because he does not have the ability to comprehend it. The same goes for us in our ability to comprehend what God is, does and think. We need some help in a form that we can understand, and therefore we have a Bible. Check it out, you will find a lot of truth in there.
3.”Do you believe that all these awesome inventions made by science, for example in the field of medicine, is because of God guiding the scientists work”
God made humans to rule the universe. Obviously He equipped them to do so.
God is great. Almighty and loving and worthy of all praise and worship.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 9:41 pm |
To McBrollocs in # 136
You ask if I missed the part where all the cruel things happened in Gods name.
Which part are you referring to. Seeing that you read the Bible as a child, tell me where I must go and read what you are referring to.
The old testament tells us of the consequences of humans rejecting God. In every situation where people brought the wrath of God upon themselves, by rejecting His authority, God has forgiven them and restored them when they repented from their evil.
The new testament is different, and the reason being that when God saw that humans just would not obey Him, and he being perfectly righteous , He could not turn a blind eye to their evil, He chose to take the punishment onto Himself.
What a great God he is.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 9:55 pm |
Andre wrote: “You ask why God does not do something about all the suffering on earth, although he did not cause the suffering. Well, its very simple, the world rejected Him,”
Well Andre, who in the world rejected him, and when? So he is such a dick that he watches everyone suffer from that day on on this planet, because the world rejected him? Sounds like a sick bastard to me. But he has his own brochure (the bible), to tell people about him, and to lead them to him, and to ask him for his forgiveness etc.
Andre wrote: “1. “Do you believe that earth is 6000 years old?”
I believe that no human being knows the age of the earth. Scientist had different figures quoted over the last 50 years, but I prefer to be honest and say “I don’t know””
Big deal that there has been different figures quoted in the last 50 years. Today we know more about the age of the earth than ever, and it is older than 6000 years, in case you are wondering, and dinosaurs did not walk the earth with man. The only reason I asked you this question, is because I am trying to get an idea about how literally you take everything written in that old book.
Science is not your enemy Andre. You treat it like it is a dirty word.
Andre wrote: “Have you ever thought that you are like a god to you dog. The poor animal cannot comprehend what you are doing when you get into your car to go to work in the mornings. He does not understand the things humans do, simply because he does not have the ability to comprehend it. The same goes for us in our ability to comprehend what God is, does and think.”
I have 2 dogs. But unlike your god, I am there for them everyday. They feel me touch them, they see me feed them, and I don’t make them suffer. They can see me. The lucky bastards come to work with me everyday, and they earn their keep. Maybe they believe I am some sort of god, but if that is what they believe, it is just their ignorance. I am no god. But I am there for them everyday. They need me to survive, and they know it. I also need them.
You should try not to give your god credit for everything you don’t understand.
Do you believe everything the evil scientists know about evolution is all bullshit? Do you believe evolution is something that is all a conspiracy and all made up? Do you believe that DNA exists, and that we can decode it and understand some of it?
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:05 pm |
Andre, you asked for it:
“It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.”
“The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).”
This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself.
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.’” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.
3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn’t give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans “property”.
6) David’s Punishment – Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God’s “Forgiveness” (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” [The child dies seven days later.]
This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:10 pm |
1) Capital Punishment Crimes:
Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons:
Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
3) Murdering Children
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD. “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy,” says the LORD. “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
4) Miscellaneous Murders
More of Samson’s Murders
(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Peter Kills Two People
There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God.” As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?” “Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.” And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too.” Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)
Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town
But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Kills Some More
Then the LORD said to me, “Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, ‘But where can we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.’ “I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” says the LORD. “I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.” (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Destruction of Ai
Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.” So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: “Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, ‘The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.’ Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders.” So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.
Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn’t realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.
Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city.” Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.
When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)
Killing at Jericho
When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
God Kills an Extended Family
“You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.’” Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam’s wife, “Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him.” (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder
The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death
That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came. He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners
And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.” [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] “So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster’s Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD’s anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: “Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel.” So Moses ordered Israel’s judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Murder
At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, “The LORD is God! The LORD is God!” Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon
“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town
Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:10 pm |
Don’t Rob God
“Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! “But you ask, ‘What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?’ “You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the LORD Almighty, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not shrivel before they are ripe,” says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 3:8-11 NLT)
(Doesn’t it seem really stupid that an all-powerful God claims he can bring food and grapes to the masses but he can’t even feed himself?)
Bible Quote for August 21
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Bible Quote for August 20
Natural Disasters are God’s Wrath
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
Bible Quotes for August 19
Pillage and Plunder
For the land of Israel lies empty and broken after your attacks, but the LORD will restore its honor and power again. Shields flash red in the sunlight! The attack begins! See their scarlet uniforms! Watch as their glittering chariots move into position, with a forest of spears waving above them. The chariots race recklessly along the streets and through the squares, swift as lightning, flickering like torches. The king shouts to his officers; they stumble in their haste, rushing to the walls to set up their defenses. But too late! The river gates are open! The enemy has entered! The palace is about to collapse! Nineveh’s exile has been decreed, and all the servant girls mourn its capture. Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in sorrow. Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir! The people are slipping away. “Stop, stop!” someone shouts, but the people just keep on running. Loot the silver! Plunder the gold! There seems no end to Nineveh’s many treasures – its vast, uncounted wealth. Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its wealth. Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake. The people stand aghast, their faces pale and trembling. (Nahum 2:2-10 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 18
An Angry Jealous God
“I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, ‘Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won’t need to strike again.’ But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn.” So now the LORD says: “Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. “On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)
Bible Quotes for August 17
God Will Kill Ethiopia
“You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword,” says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. “In all the world there is no city as great as I,” it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 16
God’s Human Slaughter Fest
Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD’s judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. “On that day of judgment,” says the LORD, “I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs. Yes, I will punish those who participate in pagan worship ceremonies, and those who steal and kill to fill their masters’ homes with loot. “On that day,” says the LORD, “a cry of alarm will come from the Fish Gate and echo throughout the newer Mishneh section of the city. And a great crashing sound will come from the surrounding hills. Wail in sorrow, all you who live in the market area, for all who buy and sell there will die. “I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem’s darkest corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them. They are the very ones whose property will be plundered by the enemy, whose homes will be ransacked. They will never have a chance to live in the new homes they have built. They will never drink wine from the vineyards they have planted. “That terrible day of the LORD is near. Swiftly it comes – a day when strong men will cry bitterly. It is a day when the LORD’s anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements! “Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground.” Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD’s anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth. (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)
Bible Quotes for August 15
God Will Kill Everyone
“I will sweep away everything in all your land,” says the LORD. “I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity,” says the LORD. “I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD’s guidance or seek my blessings.” (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 14
Old is New
Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment, for it is an old one you have always had, right from the beginning. This commandment – to love one another – is the same message you heard before. Yet it is also new. (1 John 2:7-8 NLT)
(This is not evil, but it is just so stupid I just had to post it.)
Bible Quotes for August 13
Prayer Cures the Sick
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15 ASV)
(This passage is evil because people who believe it may not get proper medical treatment for their sick children.)
Bible Quote for August 12
Fire Breathing Dragons
“Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook? Or press down his tongue with a cord? “Can you put a rope in his nose Or pierce his jaw with a hook? “Will he make many supplications to you, Or will he speak to you soft words? “Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him for a servant forever? “Will you play with him as with a bird, Or will you bind him for your maidens? “Will the traders bargain over him? Will they divide him among the merchants? “Can you fill his skin with harpoons, Or his head with fishing spears? “Lay your hand on him; Remember the battle; you will not do it again! “Behold, your expectation is false; Will you be laid low even at the sight of him? “No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him; Who then is he that can stand before Me? “Who has given to Me that I should repay {him?} {Whatever} is under the whole heaven is Mine.
“I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, Or his mighty strength, or his orderly frame. “Who can strip off his outer armor? Who can come within his double mail? “Who can open the doors of his face? Around his teeth there is terror. “{His} strong scales are {his} pride, Shut up {as with} a tight seal. “One is so near to another That no air can come between them. “They are joined one to another; They clasp each other and cannot be separated. “His sneezes flash forth light, And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. “Out of his mouth go burning torches; Sparks of fire leap forth. “Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth As {from} a boiling pot and {burning} rushes. “His breath kindles coals, And a flame goes forth from his mouth. “In his neck lodges strength, And dismay leaps before him. “The folds of his flesh are joined together, Firm on him and immovable. “His heart is as hard as a stone, Even as hard as a lower millstone.
“When he raises himself up, the mighty fear; Because of the crashing they are bewildered. “The sword that reaches him cannot avail, Nor the spear, the dart or the javelin. “He regards iron as straw, Bronze as rotten wood. “The arrow cannot make him flee; Slingstones are turned into stubble for him. “Clubs are regarded as stubble; He laughs at the rattling of the javelin. “His underparts are {like} sharp potsherds; He spreads out {like} a threshing sledge on the mire. “He makes the depths boil like a pot; He makes the sea like a jar of ointment. “Behind him he makes a wake to shine; One would think the deep to be gray-haired. “Nothing on earth is like him, One made without fear. “He looks on everything that is high; He is king over all the sons of pride.” (Job 41:1-34 NAS)
Bible Quote for August 11
Hammer Tent Peg Into Head
Meanwhile, Sisera ran to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because Heber’s family was on friendly terms with King Jabin of Hazor. Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, “Come into my tent, sir. Come in. Don’t be afraid.” So he went into her tent, and she covered him with a blanket. “Please give me some water,” he said. “I’m thirsty.” So she gave him some milk to drink and covered him again. “Stand at the door of the tent,” he told her. “If anybody comes and asks you if there is anyone here, say no.” But when Sisera fell asleep from exhaustion, Jael quietly crept up to him with a hammer and tent peg. Then she drove the tent peg through his temple and into the ground, and so he died. When Barak came looking for Sisera, Jael went out to meet him. She said, “Come, and I will show you the man you are looking for.” So he followed her into the tent and found Sisera lying there dead, with the tent peg through his temple. So on that day Israel saw God subdue Jabin, the Canaanite king. And from that time on Israel became stronger and stronger against King Jabin, until they finally destroyed him. (Judges 4:17-24 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 10
Murder and Slavery
The tribe of Benjamin, however, failed to drive out the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem. So to this day the Jebusites live in Jerusalem among the people of Benjamin. The descendants of Joseph attacked the town of Bethel, and the LORD was with them. They sent spies to Bethel (formerly known as Luz), who confronted a man coming out of the city. They said to him, “Show us a way into the city, and we will have mercy on you.” So he showed them a way in, and they killed everyone in the city except for this man and his family. Later the man moved to the land of the Hittites, where he built a city. He named the city Luz, and it is known by that name to this day. The tribe of Manasseh failed to drive out the people living in Beth-shan, Taanach, Dor, Ibleam, Megiddo, and their surrounding villages, because the Canaanites were determined to stay in that region.
When the Israelites grew stronger, they forced the Canaanites to work as slaves, but they never did drive them out of the land. The tribe of Ephraim also failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, and so the Canaanites continued to live there among them. The tribe of Zebulun also failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron and Nahalol, who continued to live among them. But they forced them to work as slaves. The tribe of Asher also failed to drive out the residents of Acco, Sidon, Ahlab, Aczib, Helbah, Aphik, and Rehob. In fact, because they did not drive them out, the Canaanites dominated the land where the people of Asher lived. The tribe of Naphtali also failed to drive out the residents of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath. Instead, the Canaanites dominated the land where they lived. Nevertheless, the people of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath were sometimes forced to work as slaves for the people of Naphtali. As for the tribe of Dan, the Amorites forced them into the hill country and would not let them come down into the plains. The Amorites were determined to stay in Mount Heres, Aijalon, and Shaalbim, but when the descendants of Joseph became stronger, they forced the Amorites to work as slaves. (Judges 1:21-35 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 9
Micah Kills a Whole Town
Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)
(Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)
Bible Quote for August 8
Ten Thousand Murdered at God’s Command
After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, “Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?” The LORD answered, “Judah, for I have given them victory over the land.” The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, “Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory.” So the men of Simeon went with Judah. When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek. While at Bezek they encountered King Adoni-bezek and fought against him, and the Canaanites and Perizzites were defeated. Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israelites soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes. Adoni-bezek said, “I once had seventy kings with thumbs and big toes cut off, eating scraps from under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them.” They took him to Jerusalem, and he died there. The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it, killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)
Bible Quotes for August 7
Kill All of Babylon
“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 6
Canaan Enslaved for Absurd Reason
Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. He drank some of the wine and became drunk, and he lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan; lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers.” He also said, “Blessed by the Lord my God be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave. May God make space for Japheth, and let him live in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave.” (Genesis 9:20-27 NRSV)
Bible Quotes for August 5
Family Killed
Then Zimri, who commanded half of the royal chariots, made plans to kill him. One day in Tirzah, Elah was getting drunk at the home of Arza, the supervisor of the palace. Zimri walked in and struck him down and killed him. This happened in the twenty-seventh year of King Asa’s reign in Judah. Then Zimri became the next king. Zimri immediately killed the entire royal family of Baasha, and he did not leave a single male child. He even destroyed distant relatives and friends. So Zimri destroyed the dynasty of Baasha as the LORD had promised through the prophet Jehu. This happened because of the sins of Baasha and his son Elah and because of all the sins they led Israel to commit, arousing the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, with their idols. (1 Kings 16:9-13 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 4
Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 2
Exterminate 7 Nations
You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, ‘How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?’ But don’t be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! “No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)
Bible Quote for August 1
Kill Everyone in 7 Nations
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don’t let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:10 pm |
Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian
10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 – You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 – You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
2 – You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:11 pm |
To McBrollocs in # 136
You say that Christians force their believes down everybody’s thoughts, in schools and universities and everywhere we can.
Not true. Christianity are being forced out of schools and universities these days.
Anyhow, anybody who forces the Gospel of Christ onto you, act contrary to what the Bible teaches. My Bible teaches that if anyone does not accept the Gospel if I preach it, to shake the dust of my feet and leave.
I am not trying to force anything onto you or anybody else. The reason I engaged into this debate, is because of the fowl and horrific linguistic attacks against my God whom I love.
We all stand up for those we love, don’t we.
The love of Christ that dwells within a true Christian is so awesome, that one would like to share it with other people. The intention should never be to force people though.
Well, its clear that we could continue this debate forever. If you really need to know why I am talking about the things I do, you need to search your own soul. Words and debates can not define the wonders of God.
Its time to shake the dust of my feet. I would not want to make you think that I am trying to force anything onto you.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 10:18 pm |
All this information I got from the following website:
http://www.evilbible.com/
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:21 pm |
Andre wrote: “You say that Christians force their believes down everybody’s thoughts, in schools and universities and everywhere we can.
Not true. Christianity are being forced out of schools and universities these days.”
Well, thats the way it should be. No religion in schools at all. And why should it be forced out? Why don’t these religious fundies leave our schools alone voluntarily Andre?
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:24 pm |
Andre, if you read my postings at # 140, 141, 142 and 143, what do you have to say about your god’s mercy now?
These are things written in your bible. How can you defend that kind of behavior? Those kind of deeds? This is from your book, not from some atheist’s book.
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:41 pm |
To McBrollocs in # 143
Ok, I did not shake the dust of my feet yet.
Your point No 10
I don’t feel outraged when someone denies the existence of my God. I feel sorry for them. Theyre missing a lot.
No: 9
No, I don’t feel dehuminised. I just think that it makes more sense to believe that God made us, than believing that the dirt automatically jumped together to form live.
No 8
I don’t laugh at anybody. I just know some of my God’s characteristics.
No 7
My face never turns purple. My God although perfectly just, took the deserved punishment of man’s sins onto Himself, thereby saving us from his wrath, that deserve by our arrogance towards our creator.
N0 6
Once again, I don’t laugh at anyone. We all know that there are several religions on earth.
No 5
It is not possible for me to spend my life looking for loopholes in the “scientifically established age of the earth “ Every time I start, the figure changes.
No 4
God will be the judge, not me. The way I read my Bible is that when somebody does not
know right from wrong, the will not be judged. God will judge all fairly and justly, and us humans are not authorised to take over that function.
No 3
What other people do has never convinced me of anything. The Holy Spirit has convinced me, yes and I would never blaspheme against Him the way you do,
No 2
Wrong. Don’t know where you get your figures from, but they don’t apply to my life.
God speaks to me every minute of the day. I don’t pray once a day, or once a week.
I live with Him.
No 1
Not according to what I have read in your comments.
Ok, now ill shake the dust of my feet.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 2, 2008 @ 10:45 pm |
You still haven’t answered my # 147 Andre, and you asked me where in your bible those horrible things are written I wrote about.
Still plenty of dust on your feet mate.
Comment by McBrolloks — August 2, 2008 @ 10:53 pm |
Andre van Coppenhagen #130: “The fact that the Big Bang and Evolution theories has changed constantly during the last 50 years is something.”
You got this totally wrong again. The details of both theories are getting more apparent through constant research by thousands of scientists. The theories themselves are intact.
Andre van Coppenhagen #130: “Every time I come across the “Big bang” theory it explains that it could not have occurred through the design of an intelligent creator.”
Where did you get this crap from? Science never said “it could not have occurred”. Science look for facts and up till now no “Intelligent power” has been observed. Tell me, where have you observed the “Intelligent power”?
Andre van Coppenhagen #130: “…science has never been able to define consciousness, tells me that there are more reason to believe that an Intelligent Force had to be responsible for the “Big Bang”, than there would be reason for believing it all happened automatically.”
See, again a clear indication that you don’t understand the scientific method. Because science cannot (for now) explain something, this fact is admitted. Now how unscientific can you get by calling on the help of an “Intelligent Force” because you cannot explain something? You god bots are surely as thick as pig shit!
Andre van Coppenhagen #130: “Why the existence of an Intelligent power behind it all is discarded by scientists outright, makes no sense.”
The only reason why scientists discard your claim of an “Intelligent power” behind the creation of the Universe is for the simple reason that there is no proof backing your claim. When scientists do not know something, they admit it. They don’t call it god-did-it. That is not science but religion. You guys just don’t want to listen what scientists say, do you? You keep on with your misunderstanding of what science is all about and you just don’t cop on. Is it because you are too dumb or are the god-memes so entrenched in you that you cannot help yourself to follow simple arguments?
Andre van Coppenhagen #130 #130: “Irrespective of the amount of hydrogen and helium in the universe, that does not rule out the existence of God. The harmony in the universe, and in everybody’s body, rule in, the existence of God though. There are definitely more reason to believe that whole creation has intelligent design behind it, than there is to believe it all just occurred.”
There you go again, calling on the help of God because you don’t understand science. Bring us the proof that a god created the Universe, or anything else for that matter. Your brain is befuddled and your reasoning infested by the god-bug.
Comment by Savage — August 3, 2008 @ 6:17 am |
Andre van Coppenhagen #137: “I believe that no human being knows the age of the earth. Scientist had different figures quoted over the last 50 years, but I prefer to be honest and say “I don’t know””
You are partly correct for a change. Do you know how scientists determine the age of Earth, the Universe, specific stars? If you don’t know read up about it, it is fascinating. The reason the age of the Universe keeps changing is because scientist keep on finding out more things with the ever increasing sizes of telescopes. With the discovery of Dark Energy in 1998 indicating that the Universe expansion is not slowing down as was first thought, but actually accelerating, the whole astronomical applecart was overturned. But don’t get excited; science is still on a very firm footing and you do not need to call on your god to answer anything.
Andre van Coppenhagen #137: “God made humans to rule the universe. Obviously He equipped them to do so.”
Where is your proof? You cannot use the Bible as proof because the book was written by man. Man evolved from a common ancestor and he is for shit sure not ruling the Universe.
Comment by Savage — August 3, 2008 @ 6:50 am |
Andre in #131, au contraire. If you are still around (dust and feet and other “don’t offend me or I’ll leave” teenage mannerisms notwithstanding), my simple story clearly proves its point. How ironic: Here you are, introducing yourself as knowledgeable on all failings of the scientific method, naming current unknowns as the hiding places of your lord and savior, taking personal offence when we repeat the things your god says about himself, desiring us to “debate” with you in an “intellectual” way, and yet you base your thinking on the grand foundation of a sado-masochistic story any five-year old would reject with contempt.
There is no debate. You may impress a terrified Sunday school class with brave tales of how you confronted some “angry” atheists, but I find it bad form that you arrive here without any intention of using reason and clear thinking to convince anyone of your ideas, and even worse that you leave with the desire that we should “search our souls” and that the holy spirit will (presumably) continue where you left off. He has quite a job to do.
In fact, it would be great if he could (for once) clean up the mess his children make. I’m tired of side-stepping all these foul-smelling remarks on my way through life. And to think that you do this in the name of love!
Comment by Oubaas — August 3, 2008 @ 11:06 am |
Ah, I seem to have missed Mr. Lovejoy’s unasked for provocation in #115. Must have really hurt your feelings when I suggested somewhere on this blog that “It’s by now quite obvious that you are driven by the need for acceptance and approval, badly acting like the saved bad-ass motherfucker you could never really be until christ provided you with the opportunity to confuse bragging with confessing, the all-time one-dollar trick.”
I see it as no coincidence that your surname makes mention of the two qualities most lacking in christians.
Comment by Oubaas — August 3, 2008 @ 1:19 pm |
Hey Andre van Coppenhagen, are you coming back? You still have to answer me a couple of things. Like those lines from the bible I posted here where rape and murder and slavery, to mention a few, are all part of god’s daily work.
What have you got to say about your forgiving divine god when it comes to all this stuff hey?
It is all written in his book. It is the book you love to read, it is the book you live by, it is the god you worship. The almighty creator of your universe. The forgiving divine almighty god.
This is your god you are defending here. If you don’t reply I take it you surrender.
But I must say, my guess is you didn’t even know these things were written in your bible. At church and bible study you guys only read the bit of that book that sounds good to you. Then you make intense studies of it, and how it applies to your lives, and how much god loves you and how great he is. Why don’t you start to read the rest of that book, and study it, and see if you want to apply those lessons to your life.
But I am still waiting for your answer. Plenty of dust left on your feet.
Comment by McBrolloks — August 3, 2008 @ 2:18 pm |
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#130 or thereabouts):
Yes. It’s called “spontaneous symmetry breaking,” a powerful idea from gauge field theory. The “Big Bang” was a name coined by Fred Hoyle who believed in a steady-state universe, i.e. one that has always existed and in which matter was constantly arising spontaneously. The name was meant to ridicule the competing theory, but it stuck. In any case, it wasn’t an explosion in the usual chemical or even thermonuclear sense of the word. If, instead of repeatedly insisting on demonstrating your chosen ignorance before a large audience you had bothered to do some actual research using this thing called “the Internet,” you could have discovered this all on your own. Even a little thought would have revealed that order arises in nature from chaos through the action of blind, stupid laws on matter: snowflakes, weathering patterns and sedimentation are just a few examples.
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#130 or thereabouts):
This is a sorry little straw man invented to paint some scientists as evil atheists. It is hardly accurate, but even if it was, whingeing and whining about it is totally the wrong response. Bring the evidence for your god so that you can beat scientists at their own game. That’s how it works.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 3, 2008 @ 2:56 pm |
Welcome back, Oubaas. Our friend Al Lovejoy has quite obvious delusions of being the Hunter S. Thompson (or maybe Tom Wolfe) of the 21st century. Trouble is, he forgets that everyone suffers and that there’s nothing special or extra-profound about either his torments or his perceptions thereof. And neither do they confer any special status on him. Like so many other oh-woe-is-me artists, he’s just a bigger whiner about them, that’s all.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 3, 2008 @ 2:56 pm |
To: Mc Brollocs
Mc Bollocs, it seems that I missed your #142.
You asked me to come back in such a nice manner in #154, that I could not ignore it.
My time is extremely limited at the moment, and I therefore did not read your whole #142, but I can see what you are getting at.
In a nutshell: In paradise humans turned against God, not God against humans, After casting humans out of paradise, because of their rebellion, God still made them clothes.
He still cared. Unfortunately humans continued with their rebellion against God. If you want to rebel against the almighty God, you should expect the wrath of the almighty God.
God makes it clear in the scriptures that you quoted. Unfortunately it seems that you read only those bits of the Bible, that you think may be useful in an attack against God.
When I read the whole Bible, I find that even though us humans continued our rebellion against God, and although God is perfectly just, and can therefore not let this rebellion go
unpunished, He still devised a plan to give a chance to mankind, to make things right.
The plan He devised is immensely unselfish. He was prepared to be brutalised and murdered, and take mankind’s due punishment onto Himself, so that mankind may be pardoned.
What I do not understand about atheists, is that they hate God, swear at God, and blaspheme against God as much as possible, and then they want to know why God does not treat the world nicely and kindly. Come on, if I swear and degrade you in the same manner, how eager would you be to help me with anything?
Anyhow, you don’t believe that God is almighty, is perfect in justice and in love, and you therefore wont accept the above. The difference is that I have experienced God and you did not. I have a spirit which science has not explained or defined to date, and what you are doing with yours, I don’t know.
Your comment that “I only read bits of the Bible that sounds good to me”, sorry friend, you are totally wrong. Some people have this problem that they generalise and them accuse others across the board. Certainly, there are many people who read only bits of the Bible, and then build doctrines around it. I dislike what they do, just as much as I dislike what you generalising critics do.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 4, 2008 @ 1:10 am |
To: Mc Brollocs
Mc Bollocs, it seems that I missed your #142.
You asked me to come back in such a nice manner in #154, that I could not ignore it.
My time is extremely limited at the moment, and I therefore did not read your whole #142, but I can see what you are getting at.
In a nutshell: In paradise humans turned against God, not God against humans, After casting humans out of paradise, because of their rebellion, God still made them clothes.
He still cared. Unfortunately humans continued with their rebellion against God. If you want to rebel against the almighty God, you should expect the wrath of the almighty God.
God makes it clear in the scriptures that you quoted. Unfortunately it seems that you read only those bits of the Bible, that you think may be useful in an attack against God.
When I read the whole Bible, I find that even though us humans continued our rebellion against God, and although God is perfectly just, and can therefore not let this rebellion go
unpunished, He still devised a plan to give a chance to mankind, to make things right.
The plan He devised is immensely unselfish. He was prepared to be brutalised and murdered, and take mankind’s due punishment onto Himself, so that mankind may be pardoned.
What I do not understand about atheists, is that they hate God, swear at God, and blaspheme against God as much as possible, and then they want to know why God does not treat the world nicely and kindly. Come on, if I swear and degrade you in the same manner, how eager would you be to help me with anything?
Anyhow, you don’t believe that God is almighty, is perfect in justice and in love, and you therefore wont accept the above. The difference is that I have experienced God and you did not. I have a spirit which science has not explained or defined to date, and what you are doing with yours, I don’t know.
Your comment that “I only read bits of the Bible that sounds good to me”, sorry friend, you are totally wrong. Some people have this problem that they generalise and them accuse others across the board. Certainly, there are many people who read only bits of the Bible, and then build doctrines around it. I dislike what they do, just as much as I dislike what you generalising critics do.
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 4, 2008 @ 1:10 am |
To Con-Tester
The “blind, stupid laws of matter” you refer to, has design in it. That is why they are laws. Designed to function in a specific manner. The protons, neutrons and electrons in matter has design in it, that is why they form atoms and behave in a predetermined manner. Everything, form the smallest building block of matter, has design in it.
There’s design everywhere, in the trees, the animals, the clouds, and all of nature. How can anybody rule out the possibility of a Designer? The mere fact that we have natural laws, tells us that there is “design” in. nature, and there are many scientists out there that therefore believe that there had to be a designer
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 4, 2008 @ 1:11 am |
To Savage
Somewhere earlier in this debate, I ask the question with the view on the ever changing
findings of scientists, at which point can one accept it as truth. In your #151 you agree that the bottom line changes continuously. Now, I understand your explanation of why it is so, and surely, scientists are only human. Things change with time. Einstein believed in a Designer, and many scientist today, who believe in Einstein’s theories, don’t believe in a Designer. Charles Darwin was a racist, trying to prove the white race supremacy over the black race. The followers of Charles Darwin’s theories today, wont admit or probably don’t believe in white race supremacy.
My question is still, at what point can we expect something to be true, if the bottom line keeps on changing ? Ok, scientists do admit when they don’t know. So, as I pointed out to Con-Tester, everything in nature has design in it. So whilst we must admit that our findings is not always necessarily the truth, and whilst we know that nature has design in it’s structures, how come it is so difficult to consider the hand of a Designer in it ?
Again you ask me to give proof of my God. Let me tell you what I believe, end then I’ll tell you where to find the proof. I believe that according to the Bible, God is spirit and created the materials universe from His spiritual realm. I also believe that I have a spirit. I live with it everyday.
The proof is twofold. The mere fact that all in nature is structured in a pre designed manner, proofs that there must be a designer. On the other hand, because God is spirit, that is where you must look for Him if you wish to find Him. It is for this reason that I suggested before to “search your soul”
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 4, 2008 @ 1:14 am |
Andre van Coppenhagen #160: “Einstein believed in a Designer, and many scientist today, who believe in Einstein’s theories, don’t believe in a Designer.”
Not so. Read
http://prometheusongebonde.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/religion-primitive-legends-childish-superstition/
The religious have unsuccessfully tried to put Einstein in the “religious box” but they were quoting him out of context all the time. I always wonder why the religious have to lie for Jesus.
Andre van Coppenhagen #160: “Charles Darwin was a racist, trying to prove the white race supremacy over the black race.”
Yes, the anti-evolutionists have tried through the years to call Darwin a racist. It must be remembered that Darwin was very much a product of his time, when virtually all Englishmen and Americans viewed blacks as culturally and intellectually inferior to whites. Darwin’s opinion on race does not deny the fact that his theory of evolution is intact and growing in strength day by day. (I actually don’t know what his opinion on race was.)
Andre van Coppenhagen #160: “My question is still, at what point can we expect something to be true, if the bottom line keeps on changing ?”
You still do not understand, do you? Evolution is true, all the exact details how every living organism evolved from a common ancestor must still be coloured in. But the whole painting is almost complete; the devilish smile from this painting staring at you is because you guys just don’t want to see the truth.
Andre van Coppenhagen #160: “ .. whilst we know that nature has design in it’s structures, how come it is so difficult to consider the hand of a Designer in it ?”
You can consider what you wish, as long as you don’t call it science; you have no proof of your Designer.
Andre van Coppenhagen #160: “ .. because God is spirit, that is where you must look for Him if you wish to find Him.”
You have proven nothing! Have you got proof that you actually saw God? No, you have no proof. Through the ages nobody has produces any proof of the existence of God and you want me now to believe in your God. No luck mate, try something else.
Comment by Savage — August 4, 2008 @ 6:50 am |
Andre in #160 writes “Charles Darwin was a racist, trying to prove the white race supremacy over the black race.”
The opposite is true: Darwin’s discovery made nonsense of the Christian idea of the divine superiority of white people. You seem to believe that racism did not exist prior to Darwin, much like some Christians believe that it was OK to murder before God gave Moses the 10 Commandments. Darwin showed that we cannot classify people into different species, and that we all have a common ancestry. Do a bit of research – the facts are readily available.
You write in #158: “In paradise humans turned against God, not God against humans.” Yes, this is something you have to believe, for it makes no sense logically. I mean, the full sentence should read: “God created humans, knowing full well that they would turn against him, and then punishes them for doing so.” You could shorten this to: “God likes punishment”.
But then, Christians have been trained not to use their brains (being afraid of God and all), so what can we expect. How many times have I not heard: “Who are you to question God?” Well, if God created me, then he also gave me a brain, and what good is mind if you don’t use it?
You seem to forget that many atheists arrived at their point of view not because of a “rebellion” against God, but because they earnestly tried to understand how a loving God could create imperfect humans and hurt them for being what he made them to be (for even if they were perfect and had free will as most Christians believe, they still made an imperfect choice by listening to Lucifer, another one of God’s creations). No loving father would do the things God does.
In fact, honesty and common decency demands that you ask yourself why God, being omniscient, would allow pain and suffering into the world. Someone once told me that he simply cannot believe in God because he loves him so much. You see, this is honesty.
As Karen Owens writes:
Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?
Andre, you tell me.
Comment by Oubaas — August 4, 2008 @ 7:00 am |
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#159 or thereabouts):
So what you’re saying is that the existence of laws require a lawgiver – i.e. a being that decides first what those laws are to be and, second, then implements them. Now tell me this: who or what decreed the law that requires a lawgiver to account for the existence of laws? If it was that same lawgiver then the lawgiver requirement is entirely an arbitrary and, in fact, an egotistical command. If not, your lawgiver is bound by something greater than it is itself.
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#159 or thereabouts):
In other words, Andre van Coppenhagen knows more about matter, its nature and its constituents than particle physicists do. As for “behav[ing] in a predetermined manner,” you should, once again, make a more thorough effort of informing yourself before blathering such nonsense.
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#159 or thereabouts):
“Rule out the possibility?” Who, please, has done this?
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#159 or thereabouts):
But their number is appreciably smaller than that of those scientists who make no such claim and who, instead, say, “There is much good evidence to suggest that a designer is not required to explain observable phenomena.”
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#160 or thereabouts):
That would depend on what particular meaning you choose to assign to the word “design.” If it merely means something like “pattern” or “arrangement” then you won’t find too many people arguing with you. If, on the other hand, you mean something like “teleological” or “consciously made for a specific purpose” then you are seriously overstepping the bounds of reasonable inference. You are, in fact, saying far more than the evidence warrants because there is hugely more reason to believe that we see “design” firstly because we are confined by nature and can’t step out of it for some kind of privileged view, and secondly because our brains have evolved that way. In contrast, believers like you are happy to posit the most ridiculous fairytales, then attempt to sell them as fact without a shred of credible supporting evidence, before getting annoyed when others laugh at this bullshit you’re trying to peddle. So here’s my suggestion once again: bring the evidence that supports your god notions so that you can beat us evil atheist scientists at our own game and stop whingeing about how science doesn’t take you seriously. Because no scientific truth was ever established by moaning.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 4, 2008 @ 8:21 am |
This is beautiful! (From PZ Myers’ blog)
“Darwin’s theory of evolution was simple, beautiful, majestic and awe-inspiring. But because it contradicts the allegorical babblings of a bunch of made-up old books, it’s been under attack since day one. That’s just tough luck for Darwin. If the Bible had contained a passage that claimed gravity is caused by God pulling objects toward the ground with magic invisible threads, we’d still be debating Newton with idiots too.”
Well said; idiots abound.
Comment by Savage — August 4, 2008 @ 8:40 am |
To Savage:
Yes, Darwin was a product of his time, that’s why I mentioned him. Things change with time, all things does, except the truth.
Quote from Savage: “You still do not understand, do you? Evolution is true, all the exact details how every living organism evolved from a common ancestor must still be coloured in. But the whole painting is almost complete”
I understand perfectly. Until you manage to complete the painting, there is no way it can be accepted as “truth” Science has in the past accepted “half done paintings” as truth, with terrible results. I am not going to make the same mistake. 150 years ago, medical science believed that when a patient is very ill, the patent’s blood has gone bad and therefore has to be drained. They were partly right. A patients blood might have gone bad, when very ill, but this does not mean you should drain the blood, without replacing it. I wonder how many people got killed by this half done painting. Had these scientists believed what the Bible says in Leviticus 17:11, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood”, many lives would have been saved.
Quote from Savage: “You can consider what you wish, as long as you don’t call it science; you have no proof of your Designer.”
Well, science should have some degree of honesty in it, to make it credible. Some people do possess the required honesty, for instance Sir Arthur Keith, who wrote the foreword to “The origin of Species – 100th edition” I quote, “Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable.”
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 4, 2008 @ 9:40 am |
To Oubaas:
Your comment: “You seem to believe that racism did not exist prior to Darwin”!
Did I say Darwin was the first racist, ir did I say he was a racist?.
Your comment: “God created humans, knowing full well that they would turn against him, and then punishes them for doing so.”
Free will, means free will. It means that you are free to will, whatever you choose. God gave humans this fantastic gift, to be able to decide for themselves. Therefore God did not know full well that they would turn against Him. He left the choice to them in the first place.
To answer Karen’s comment:
God does not exist within a realm of time: He created time and space, and therefore He is not bound by past, present or future. Read 2 Peter 3:8: “ that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years, like one day”
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 4, 2008 @ 10:37 am |
Andre van Coppenhagen, I think we attach different meanings to the concept “scientific truth”. For example, using Newton’s laws of motion and gravity you can put a satellite successfully in orbit. But to make the GPS work you have to use Einstein, because using Newton the system will fail within a day. Now do you mean that Newton is false and all his laws should be discarded?
Andre van Coppenhagen #164: “Science has in the past accepted “half done paintings” as truth, with terrible results.”
This may have been true in the past. But because, as you say, science hasn’t painted in the full picture yet, do you refuse to make use of medical science when you are ill? Rely on God to cure you because the “truth” of medical science has not been fully revealed? The modern world with electricity, TV, etc., etc. you ignore because there are still “truths” out there to be discovered. Do you still live in a cave waiting for the final “truth”?
Andre van Coppenhagen #164: “Sir Arthur Keith, who wrote the foreword to “The origin of Species – 100th edition” I quote, “Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable.””
You got this quote from one or other creationist website. Read below a comment on your quote; go down to quote #81.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-4.html
I have copied the comment for your benefit.
“The quote that is attributed to Sir Arthur Keith is a figment of the creationists imagination. I researched that quote a month or two ago and could not find a trace of it. No library in the Atlanta metro area has this particular edition and neither Amazon nor Barnes and Noble has this edition. I am in nine newsgroups and no one in these NGs had a copy or had ever seen one. A search of the internet showed many references for this quote but every one of them was from a creationist site. It is also amazing because that Sir Arthur died in 1955 and the 100th anniversary edition would not have been issued until 1959. Tell me, did “God” write this for Sir Arthur from heaven?”
You must stop reading only creationist publications. Read science publications if you want to open your eyes to what is really happening in this world. The creationists are so pathetic with their lying and bullshit (read the whole article quoted above) that you should be ashamed to be part of them; I mean, lying and cheating to get your ideas across.
Comment by Savage — August 4, 2008 @ 10:50 am |
To: Con-Tester:
Your comment: “who or what decreed the law that requires a lawgiver to account for the existence of laws? If it was that same lawgiver then the lawgiver requirement is entirely an arbitrary and, in fact, an egotistical command. If not, your lawgiver is bound by something greater than it is itself.”
Where did your “dirt” that was once concentrated into one spot, and later expanded to form the universe, come from? If it just happened to be there, that is not science. If it did not just happened, then your dirt is bound by something greater than itself.
Lets face it, we don’t know where God comes from, but neither do you know where your dirt comes from.
Anyhow, by using the word “law”, I refer to the way in which matter behaves, due to its built in characteristics. It has nothing to do with Roman Dutch law or its like.
Your comment: “Rule out the possibility?” Who, please, has done this?
So eventually you “Rule In” the possibility!
Your comment: “But their number is appreciably smaller than that of those scientists who make no such claim…. “
Just because the majority believes something, (if they do in this case.), it does not mean they are correct. Some years ago the majority of scientists believed that earth is flat.
Your comment: “That would depend on what particular meaning you choose to assign to the word “design.””
Well, then I won’t have many people arguing with me. The point is that when “patterns’ or specific arrangements is formed, it has to be due to the built in characteristics of the objects that forms a pattern or specific arrangement. Especially if it forms the same arrangements, in different areas of space.
Your comment: “…..so that you can beat us evil atheist scientists at our own game ….stop whingeing”
What own game, investigating the secrets of the universe, or conducting a debate ?
Whingeing ? – I though this is a debate. Are you becoming uncomfortable, seeing that you start calling a debate, whingeing?
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 4, 2008 @ 11:30 am |
Andre, thanks for #166.
Whether Darwin was a racist or not is not the issue here (for surely you know that there was a time when criticism of slavery was tantamount to blasphemy), so your reasons for mentioning this are highly suspect. What’s the relevance? You could just as well have mentioned that Darwin was an abolitionist (in case you did not know).
You have an interesting understanding of the idea of Free Will. You write: “Free will, means free will. It means that you are free to will, whatever you choose. God gave humans this fantastic gift, to be able to decide for themselves. Therefore God did not know full well that they would turn against Him. He left the choice to them in the first place.”
If God “did not know full well”, than he could not be God – and you are more confused than I thought. God is supposed to know everything according to so many Bible verses, I’m surprised you now want to limit him in such an obvious way. It will mean that God also does not know what is going to happen to you tomorrow, that your prayers have no effect, that he did not call you by your name long before the foundations of the earth was laid (because he did not know that your father would have exercised his free will to have sex with your mother), etc etc.
How you manage to marry the idea of “God does not exist within a realm of time: He created time and space, and therefore He is not bound by past, present or future” with “God did not know full well that they would turn against Him” is beyond me. You are arguing against yourself here, and I suggest you get clarity about what you believe in before your try to defend it here.
Comment by Oubaas — August 4, 2008 @ 11:47 am |
Angus Buchan is an amazing man of God. He is living the life that God put him on earth for. Serving God should be your ultimate goal/reason for being alive. Angus doesnt do it for the money! He takes money from his own farming income to do these outreaches.
You guys should do yourselves a favour and read his book, or even better, the Bible. Just know that there are Christians out there who pray for the unbelievers everyday. May God save your souls before its too late.
Comment by Rochelle — August 4, 2008 @ 12:40 pm |
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#168 or thereabouts):
You’re not answering the question. We know that matter exists. We have good, solid, repeatable evidence for it. Not so for your designer whose origin you simply have to exempt from any kind of scrutiny. Do you not see what a laughable copout you’ve just presented? And ignoring your ongoing distortions and ignorance of Big Bang cosmology, science hasn’t yet answered the question of ultimate origins (assuming that it even can do so) but it has some ideas that are being investigated. In contrast, you confidently say that you know the answer because, to you, our present inability is sufficient to point at the half-arsed conclusions that you would have us believe. I repeat: who or what wrote the law that says laws require a lawgiver?
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#168 or thereabouts):
Agreed, but I thought that was rather obvious. Are you rescinding your implied claim that the laws of nature were ordained by a lawgiver?
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#168 or thereabouts):
No. I reject the possibility as unnecessary, given our current level of scientific understanding. I make no further claims one way or the other, except to say that there are good reasons (philosophical, scientific, empirical) to suppose that any such designer, if it exists, is a far cry from the childish concepts presented in any number of so-called “holy books.”
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#168 or thereabouts):
My point precisely about the minority that thinks otherwise. It seems to me that you’re banking on the wrongheaded idea that the orthodoxy is more often wrong than it is right, and on the strength of this flimsy possibility, you would challenge their knowledge. If so, you need to inform yourself better.
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#168 or thereabouts):
Quite so. The forces that produce such repeatability are known as “laws of nature.” However, there’s no good reason to suppose that they were decreed by some ill-defined conscious and purposeful designer.
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#168 or thereabouts):
The “game” called “science.” That would be the one that demands evidence supporting a claim before the claim will be seriously entertained. For a mere “possibility,” especially one as slim and fragile as your designer, such evidence is much more critical, given the far-reaching consequences of what you’re peddling. And I fail to see how calling it “conducting a debate” changes anything, unless you’re just blowing smoke. After all, it seems clear that you are trying to present a convincing case for your beliefs on what is unmistakably a scientific question.
Andre van Coppenhagen wrote (#168 or thereabouts):
Yes, “whingeing.” That’s where you substitute words for evidence; words that by implication bemoan the supposed blindness and obstinacy of scientists who disagree with you. The sum total of your argument is, “Well, I myself simply cannot believe what these scientists are telling me! Plus, they can’t disprove the existence of a grand cosmic designer. Therefore, they must be wrong.” That type of muddleheaded argument from ignorance coupled to a cocksure certainty of positional superiority is what keeps getting humanity into trouble in the first place.
Rochelle wrote (#170 or thereabouts):
That’s very sweet of them but they’re wasting their efforts on a fantasy.
Rochelle wrote (#170 or thereabouts):
May reason save your body before you do something faith-based.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 4, 2008 @ 12:47 pm |
Con-tester – Reading what you have read hurts me beyond belief. God breathed you into existence and you so openly refuse him. I will continue praying for the non-believers as that is my duty as a Christian. Its not a waste of time. Anyone that has a personal relationship with the Lord will agree with me on that. You might be able to deny him now, but on the day of judgement when you stand infront of him, nobody will be able to deny him. What most people do not realize is that some day they will look to the Lord and realize his ultimate power. They will realize that they should have bowed before that point.
Romans 14:11-12
11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Comment by Rochelle — August 4, 2008 @ 1:07 pm |
Rochelle wrote (#172 or thereabouts):
That’s your own choice. I won’t take responsibility for or feel guilt about your hallucinations.
Rochelle wrote (#172 or thereabouts):
No, s/he didn’t.
Rochelle wrote (#172 or thereabouts):
That’s like “openly refusing” the tooth fairy.
Rochelle wrote (#172 or thereabouts):
That’s your own choice. I won’t take responsibility for or feel guilt about your hallucinations.
Rochelle wrote (#172 or thereabouts):
And this peevish and megalomaniacal tyrant who expects that everyone must revere him/her on pain of eternal torment, you also no doubt believe to be a “god of love,” yes? If you treated your children the way this god of yours treats his/her own, namely us, you’d be indicted on charges of pathological child abuse in no time at all.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 4, 2008 @ 1:31 pm |
Andre wrote: “My time is extremely limited at the moment”
At least you stick around a bit. You fellow Christian buddies could learn from you.
Andre wrote: ” I dislike what they do, just as much as I dislike what you generalising critics do.”
Generalising? Well, let me ask you something. Would you have an issue with a dictator that orders all captive males and non-virgin woman killed, but keeps the virgins for his troops? Yet, it is fine if your god does this? Children (boys) killed too, in cold blood. Yet, it’s fine when your god does this? Forgive me if I find your god’s morality severely warped.
Andre wrote: “The “blind, stupid laws of matter” you refer to, has design in it. That is why they are laws.”
You might think/believe you god “designed” those laws, but you fail to see the major difference between the laws in nature and the laws your god allegedly gave in the Bible. We cannot break the laws of nature, but it’s easy peasy to break the “other” laws of your god as found in the Bible. Nature’s laws cannot be broken, your god’s laws can. Another difference is of course is that nature’s laws are not obsessed with peoples personals sex lives, and your god’s laws are. Oh wait, natures laws are not obsessed about blind belief either, and your god’s laws are. In fact, nature does not give a rat’s patootie about humans. One rock from space and more than 90% of life on earth is wiped clean. We find nature’s extinctions, your god’s must have been covered up, like the big flood.
Andre wrote: “Designed to function in a specific manner.”
The fact that it does function in a specific way is not evidence that it was “designed”. Do you understand why?
Andre wrote: “There’s design everywhere, in the trees, the animals, the clouds, and all of nature. How can anybody rule out the possibility of a Designer?”
Well, then, please tell me what the difference between a designed thing and a non-designed thing is? I would say a piece of rock (or poop) is not designed, but since you claim god designed all things you will have to argue that every single crappy piece of rock is designed. I ask therefore, how do you differentiate between “designed” and “not designed”, and how can we test it? Did you god design the AIDS virus too?
Andre wrote: “The mere fact that we have natural laws, tells us that there is “design” in. nature”
Wrong. You assume god and therefore are forced to see design. Deal with your assumption first. And when you figure out why Zeus did not design the laws of nature you will understand why we extend such views to your flavour of god.
Andre: “So, as I pointed out to Con-Tester, everything in nature has design in it.”
you pointed out you believe you see design, you provided no “points” as to why. Your claims are in essence the classic “Argument from Ignorance”. It short, it goes like this: “I don’t understand something, therefore god did it”.
Andre wrote: and whilst we know that nature has design in it’s structures”
You are being dishonest and now you are lying. We don’t “know” if there is design. Don’t confuse *belief* with *knowledge*. Please, try to be honest in your statements.
Andre wrote: “Again you ask me to give proof of my God. Let me tell you what I believe, end then I’ll tell you where to find the proof”
Your beliefs are not proof of anything just like a fairy believer’s belief is not proof that fairies exist. Do you understand this? To claim there is proof puts the responsibility for such proof on *you*. So, where is it? Besides, I would like to know what would convince you that you are wrong in your beliefs. A Voice From Heaven ™ will make me consider. What would make you consider?
Andre wrote: “The proof is twofold. The mere fact that all in nature is structured in a pre designed manner, proofs that there must be a designer.”
Bullshit. Prove that nature is designed first. How can we test it to make sure we are not just bullshitting ourselves by claiming design in the things we do not understand yet?
Andre wrote: “On the other hand, because God is spirit”
Provide proof for a “spirit” and I might listen you your argument. By you need to look at those assumptions, you are drowning in them.
Andre wrote: “It is for this reason that I suggested before to “search your soul””
Provide proof for a soul. No, really, you *really* need to deal with those assumptions.
Andre wrote: “150 years ago, medical science believed…”
Oh please. You Bible says sickness are caused by demons, and here you are whining about “science” of 150 years ago. We have evidence our modern medicine works in many cases. Would you mind comparing it to evidence that prayer works for *any* case? There is no evidence that prayer works and for this reason I find it amusing that you complain about science as it was 150 years ago. Shame on you!
Andre wrote: “Had these scientists believed what the Bible says in Leviticus 17:11, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood”, many lives would have been saved.”
Damn, that was funny. Thanks for the laugh dude! Tell you what. You can keep all you blood and we can disable all the special bacteria, called mitochondria, in your body. Lets test you Bible a bit. The fact is, the blood’s primary function is making sure the mitochondria are happy. Wonder why your god failed to mention the more important part. Did he know about mitochondria? Oh well, we do know your god had a certain unhealthy interest in blood.
Andre wrote: “I quote, “Evolution is unproved and improvable…”
I suggest you start educating yourself immediately. You don’t want to spread lies around, right? So, go and find out for *yourself* what is going on and stop trusting fringe freaks with religious agendas. http://www.talkorigins.org should make you more honest. You are a seeker of truth, are you not?
But on a more personal note. Andre, I understand you reasoning and views. I was a Christian for most of my life. A word of humble advice. Don’t believe everything you read. Double check and keep an open mind. You would be surprised how a person can retell lies without even knowing it. But seriously, would you like us to discuss the “proof” for evolution with you or would you prefer to “believe” there is none?
Comment by Renier — August 4, 2008 @ 1:44 pm |
Con-tester – I do not want to get into some kind of argument with you. Im a daughter of my loving Heavenly Father and all I wanted to do was share this with you. Whether you accept it or not is up to you. I have at least tried and will continue praying for you and others like you who, if you dont accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal saviour will be spending a lost eternity without him. All I can do is pray. May the Lord soften your heart Contester.
Comment by Rochelle — August 4, 2008 @ 1:44 pm |
Rochelle wrote (#175 or thereabouts):
Then desist from condescending to me based on nothing more than your touchy-feely, warm’n’fuzzy pipedreams of how you think that your sky-daddy benefits humanity in general, and you and me in particular.
Rochelle wrote (#175 or thereabouts):
And you have shared it, revealing a rather obvious view to convincing the reader of the great value of your testimonial. I didn’t ask you to do so, and while I have no reason to doubt that you are sincere about what you believe, I reject the content of your belief as entirely unconvincing.
Rochelle wrote (#175 or thereabouts):
Indeed, and the same goes for you, too. So why feel the need to berate me on my choice? Especially by such a transparent and ultimately insulting ruse that foregoes reason in favour of attempting to cudgel me into submission by instilling dread for a bunch of greatly improbable maybes?
Rochelle wrote (#175 or thereabouts):
Yet again, that’s your own choice. I won’t take responsibility for or feel guilt about your hallucinations.
Rochelle wrote (#175 or thereabouts):
And may reason give you clearer focus, Rochelle.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 4, 2008 @ 2:17 pm |
Contester – I never tried to berate you into believing what I do, I just wanted to share. I have not used harsh words nor attacked you in any way and yet you feel the need to do that to me? Im a loving, trusting person and feel deeply sorry for you and for others that feel the same you do. All I know is that oneday there will be nowhere for you to go when you stand infront of the Lord. And I pray with all my heart that this day wont come before you have had the chance to repent and accept Jesus Christ. God Bless you and others who read this and have the same viewpoint.
Comment by Rochelle — August 4, 2008 @ 2:36 pm |
Renier writes #122: “Hi Hendrik! Hoe gaan dit? Wat presies pla jou van George se gevolgtrekking? Dit sal nice wees indien ons dit kan ontleed en bespreek.”
Sorry Renier, I wrote comment #1, but not #121 – seems some xtian troll sharing my first name left us a little coprolite and then promptly disappeared again…
Comment by Hendrik — August 4, 2008 @ 2:59 pm |
Rochelle wrote (#177 or thereabouts):
Really? Then please review your comments #170, #172 and #175 (or thereabouts) and kindly tell me why are you so intent on repeatedly pointing out how lost and adrift I and those like me are without your god.
Rochelle wrote (#177 or thereabouts):
Do not, please, play coy with me. You know very, very well what christian dogma says about the penalties for disbelief, blasphemy and heresy. Or are you perhaps denying that if I fail to convert and acknowledge your sky-daddy as supreme Bwana, I’ll be going straight off to hell one day to suffer eternal torment? Cloaking the message in honey and innuendo doesn’t change the fact that it’s a message of blackmail. Nor do good intentions, whether sincere or not, absolve you of the need to substantiate your beliefs about what you imagine my fate will be. And lest it be overlooked, the very act of your voicing these beliefs necessarily implies an intent on your part to influence my conduct, otherwise you’d have no reason for mentioning it in the first place.
Rochelle wrote (#177 or thereabouts):
That’s exactly the problem: you “know” this on near enough zilch evidence and still feel offended when someone points out how ludicrous such ill-founded belief is.
Rochelle wrote (#177 or thereabouts):
And yet again, that’s your own choice. I won’t take responsibility for or feel guilt about your hallucinations.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 4, 2008 @ 3:11 pm |
Andre, thanks for getting back to me. You didn’t answer my question clearly.
What you did sat was: “Anyhow, you don’t believe that God is almighty, is perfect in justice and in love, and you therefore wont accept the above.”
So how come all those atrocities in the bible was commited in his name? How come it was all his orders?
How “perfect” and “just” and “love” is that? What about the people on the wrong side of his “justice”?
You are praying to a very sadistic and sick spook. Could you find a better god to worship?
If humans have been on this planet for more than 100 000 years, and god made man in his image and he has a special plan for all of us, are all those billions of people who lived before your bible was written all going to hell?
You are very delusional and the common sense of reason deludes your rational completely.
And you still haven’t answered me about those cruel deeds committed by god’s people in the bible, following god’s orders and his law.
Comment by McBrolloks — August 4, 2008 @ 4:16 pm |
And this Rochelle fundie is another stellar example of a perfectly good life wasted worshipping an invisible ghost/spook.
Live on your knees. Blame your god’s will for all that goes wrong in your life. Give your god credit for all that goes right.
Hate and fight against science and reason. Despise the free thinking man/woman.
Pray for everyone and everything.
No action needed, god will provide, and if he doesn’t, we fucked up, or we blame the atheists.
So that when our small worthless lives end, we go to paradise. Or so we hope, for even if we are right, our god might still find a reason not to let us in there, so we have to fear him at all times.
As for me, I will take these famous lines:
“I’d rather die on my feet, than live on my knees!!!”
Comment by McBrolloks — August 4, 2008 @ 4:29 pm |
I honestly could not stop thinking about the things that have been said on this site when I was at my home group last night. I brought it up and asked our leader what I should say. He encouraged me to share a testimony of something that God did for me and leave it at that. So, thats what I am going to do.
When my mom was almost 40 she fell pregnant with my little brother. Up until that time we were a close family with my mom, dad and my 2 sisters. My dad had always wanted a son to share his love of fishing, diving ect with.
My mom had a very difficult pregnancy and was eventually confined to bed rest if she wanted to keep the baby. When she was about 4 months along, she went to the doctor for a check up.
The doctor did the standard tests and they found that there was something very wrong with the baby. The doc proceeded to tell my mom that her baby would either be born with down syndrome, spinabifida or something similar. The doctor did the test a few more times just to confirm what the first one said. She was then sent to another room for more tests to see exactly what he was going to be born with.
There was already someone in the room, so my mom had to wait outside. While waiting she called our family and asked us to pray that the Lord heal her baby. We called the church and asked them to pray for the next 15 mins while she was waiting, that the Lord would work a miracle.
When she went into the room to find out how bad her baby’s condition would be, the doctor did the tests, but could find absolutely nothing wrong. He did them a second and third time, but still nothing showed. He asked my mom to go back to the first room and doctor, where he repeated the first test. This test then showed that there was nothing wrong with her baby. When he compared the 2 tests, he couldnt believe what he was seeing. In the space of 15mins, the tests had gone from showing a huge abnormality to being completely normal. The doctor, who wasnt a Christian, said that he couldnt explain it and that it was truely a miracle.
My perfect little brother was born 5 months later and is now 4 years old. He has an above average IQ and is truely a blessing to my family. My God healed my little brother while he was still in the womb and I will forever give him praise for his faithfulness and love.
Comment by Rochelle — August 5, 2008 @ 6:04 am |
A very touching and nice story, Rouchelle, and I am glad your brother was born healthy. But what I believe what happened is this: there was an obvious fault with the initial tests that were corrected with the follow-up tests. Your brother had nothing wrong with him; the tests just gave incorrect results initially. There are many scientific explanations why most tests are not 100 % reliable, so to increase the probability of obtaining a correct result, tests are repeated. Check up on the internet how Bayes’ Theorem and its application is explained.
Your story is just one of so many that have never been scientifically tested and verified. Some very scientifically explainable phenomena are discarded for the more appealing thought that god-did-it fits in so nicely with a religious person’s worldview. Science is discarded for religion and pseudo-science.
Comment by Savage — August 5, 2008 @ 6:38 am |
Touching indeed, Rochelle. I too am relieved that your brother was born healthy and intact.
But now ask yourself this: You seem to believe quite firmly that your god wrought a miracle of healing, prompted by prayer. Suppose, however, that the initial tests had been correct and your brother had been born with a gross abnormality, despite all the prayer and invocations. Would you have blamed your god for that fact? If not, who then, and why?
Comment by Con-Tester — August 5, 2008 @ 7:33 am |
I would not have blamed God if in fact my little brother had been born with an abnormality. Because we would have then have prayed for grace and understanding as well as the patience and love needed for caring for a child that has special needs. And I firmly believe that God would have done just that. Mine is a relationship based on faith, not on seeing and so, I will continue to have faith that the Lord will touch the hearts of others as he has touched mine.
Comment by Rochelle — August 5, 2008 @ 8:18 am |
Rochelle wrote (#185 or thereabouts):
(Emphasis added.) But that attitude seems more than just a little perverse and wayward. After all, your god would surely have had the power to make your brother’s life better, as well as the lives of his keepers, yet s/he chose not to do so, even knowing how it all comes out. Are you perhaps saying that it’s okay to inflict lifelong torment from birth on an innocent child like your brother, not to mention on all the other people who are tasked with looking after him, as long as your god imposes it?
Rochelle wrote (#185 or thereabouts):
In other words, your brother would then have lived a much diminished life as a bit-part pawn or tool in some vile cosmic play cobbled together by your god to teach those of you who would look after the child some or other obscure and supposedly spiritual lesson. How can such wanton abuse actually accord with your idea (or anyone else’s, for that matter) of a just and loving god?
Rochelle wrote (#185 or thereabouts):
That much is obvious, but it’s hardly a defence of anything. “Faith” is just a euphemism for “too darn lazy and insecure to think for myself.”
Rochelle wrote (#185 or thereabouts):
And, based on the disharmonious and compartmentalised way of thinking as evidenced above, I will continue to point out the base absurdities of religious belief wherever I can in the hope that others won’t be so easily duped.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 5, 2008 @ 9:08 am |
Contester – I honestly dont understand why you are so agro with me? I have done nothing to you and yet you treat me so badly with your words. You seem to be so angry and Im not sure if that anger stems from a past hurt that has something to do with the church. I just dont know. But, I do know one thing, and that is that God knows and that he loves you. Please can we just have a normal conversation, without you pulling apart my entry line by line? Please?
Comment by Rochelle — August 5, 2008 @ 9:34 am |
Rochelle, those spina bifida tests are notoriously inaccurate. My one daughter (now a teenager) also tested positive in utero for spina bifida. We had a proper sonar examination done, which confirmed that she in fact did not have spina bifida.
Did I start praising a sky fairy after all this? No, I was merely grateful that science enabled us to “see” with sonar that which was not visible to the naked eye.
If your testimony #182 above is the foundation of your (unfounded and strange) beliefs, you *seriously* need to start reading other books than an ancient Middle Eastern fairy tale.
Comment by Hendrik — August 5, 2008 @ 9:35 am |
Rochelle, one more thing. You say in #182: “I honestly could not stop thinking about the things that have been said on this site when I was at my home group last night. I brought it up and asked our leader what I should say.”
It is of critical (I do mean affecting life and death!) importance that you start thinking for yourself and start asking the right questions. Simply “asking the leader” is probably the worst thing one could do in your situation. “The leader” always has an agenda.
Comment by Hendrik — August 5, 2008 @ 9:41 am |
Hendrik – I simply asked the leader what a Christian should say in this situation as to not furthur alienate the readers from the Lord. I just didnt want to say the wrong thing and then have it thrown back in my face as “not something a Christian should say” I have my own views and do my own thinking, but just needed some advice from someone who has been in this situation before. Also, I dont just accept what the leaders say. If its not based on the Bible, its incorrect and I will challenge them on it, as the Bible is the only true source of information and teaching.
Comment by Rochelle — August 5, 2008 @ 10:09 am |
Rochelle wrote (#187 or thereabouts):
If I seem aggro, it’s because I have very little patience for superstitious and fantastical jack-in-the-box thinking. By far the biggest culprit is religion.
Rochelle wrote (#187 or thereabouts):
Except for repeatedly telling me how allegedly misguided I am for rejecting your god. And, moreover, by implication, how I am imperilling myself to the tune of facing eternal hellfire. If your god, assuming s/he exists, had any teeth and balls at all, s/he’d have arranged things very differently to how we find them in the world. S/he’d be a whole lot less irascibly, premenstrually holier-than-thou.
Rochelle wrote (#187 or thereabouts):
Please try to understand this: I’m dissecting and sometimes ridiculing your beliefs, not your person. There’s a rather big difference.
Rochelle wrote (#187 or thereabouts):
Yes, I am angry that people swallow this religious claptrap so readily without thinking about it. I am angry that that this habit goes largely unchallenged because it predisposes people to engage in all sorts of other and potentially dangerous faith-based stupidities and behaviours. Most of all, I am angry that believers like yourself are evidently incapable of seeing how fundamentally wicked and destructive your insistence is that your religion is all about love, when actually it’s about fear, oppression and subversion of all that is naturally good in humanity.
Rochelle wrote (#187 or thereabouts):
No, you do not know any such thing unless you wish to redefine the meaning of “to know.”
Rochelle wrote (#187 or thereabouts):
On this blog, what we’re having is a normal conversation. If you want a kaffeeklatsch, then you’ve come to the wrong place.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 5, 2008 @ 10:14 am |
Ok Contester – this will be my last entry, as I have done my part. You have upset me to the point of tears.
Just remember what I tried to tell you, in the best way possible, when you are standing infront of our Lord one day.
I will continue praying for you and other like you, no matter what ridicule you decide to give back.
Comment by Rochelle — August 5, 2008 @ 10:26 am |
Sorry, forgot to include this, but I do know that God loves you because it says so in the Bible. And if God said it, I believe it.
John 3v16 – For God so loved the world that he sent his one and only son, that whoever believes shall have eternal life…
Comment by Rochelle — August 5, 2008 @ 10:28 am |
To Savage, Con-Tester, McBrollocs and all other clever atheists.
Here’s some mathematics for you. Remember the story of the Chinese inventor of the game of chess? The king said he could ask what he wishes as a reward. The inventor then said he wants a grain of rice for the first block on the chess board, that is to be doubled for the second block, the second blocks total again doubled for the third block, on so on, for all 64 blocks on the chess board.. The king was surprised, for it seemed to be a small reward the man asked for, but when the time came to give the reward, they could not find enough grains of rice in the whole of the country to pay the reward.
If man existed on earth for 100,000 years. (for arguments sake), , the average live span is 40 years, and the average number of children per couple is 2.5. Start with one couple, 100,000 years ago.
To make it easy, do it on Excel. Make two columns. First column is the number of people, who will have children, the second column is 2.5 children for each couple. (the firs column divided by two, times 2.5.)
Now carry the value in column two, down to the next row under column one. They are the next generation who will have 2.5 children for each couple.
Repeat this so that you fill 2500 rows. (100,000 years divided by 40 years per generation. equals 2500)
On my computer, the maximum width of a column of 255 characters was not wide enough to hold the figure. You may divide that result in row 2500 by a ‘1’ followed by 64 zeros. When I did this I got 37,675,802,863,059,400 followed by another 176 zero’s, what did you get ?
Now we know that in wars and other disasters masses of people were killed on the one hand, an on the other hand there were times and areas where the average couple had twelve and more children, but still if we look at the result on row 100 (roughly 4000 years since the flood of Noah divided by 40 years per generation ).The result in column 1 is 7,854,549,544 and in column two 9,818,186,931.
Please note that my purpose for using these figures are simply to demonstrate what is realistic. We have roughly 6.5 billion people on earth today. If people existed for 100,000 years (for arguments sake), we should have numerous accounts of major disasters that reduced the human population to almost nothing, even if we had 50 billion people on earth from time to time.)
I wonder where all the bones are!
Comment by Andre van Coppenhagen — August 5, 2008 @ 10:37 am |
Rochelle wrote (#190 or thereabouts):
That unfounded assumption is just a single, equally unfounded though more basic assumption shy of where all the trouble begins, namely the existence of your (or any other) god. You should really and quite seriously consider the possibility that your beliefs could be wrong. If nothing else, such contemplations could assist you with placing your beliefs on a somewhat firmer footing.
Rochelle wrote (#192 or thereabouts):
As you wish, but I suspect that your tears may have quite a bit more to do with seething frustration than any genuine upset of your worldview. I’d prefer the latter.
Rochelle wrote (#192 or thereabouts):
If – and it’s a very, very big “if” – that day ever comes to pass, I shall be sure to tell your god about your efforts here (as if s/he doesn’t know already), just before spitting in his/her eye for being such a persistently cruel and callous arsehole. I’d rather spend an eternity in hell than bow to such a bully.
Rochelle wrote (#193 or thereabouts):
Meanwhile, Superman said that Kryptonite is dangerous, but that doesn’t make his assertion a fact with actual referents is the real world, allowing it to be labelled as “knowable” in any correct usage of the word “know.”
Comment by Con-Tester — August 5, 2008 @ 11:00 am |
Andre I am sure the others will take up your question in #194, but here is my comment.
You make the (incorrect) assumption that the only determinants will be your “2.5 children per couple” and “40 years per generation” postulates.
The reality is much different. For one, there have been a number of ice ages and climatic disasters that have severely impacted human numbers. Secondly, even if one completely ignores the climatic disasters, the total number of humans alive at any point in time will be directly dependent on the state of human technology at that point. The only reason that there are more than 6bn people alive today is because we now, for the first time in history, have the technology to feed them all, and the medical science to keep them alive for longer.
There has never been a time in earth’s history when 50bn people were alive at the same time.
By the way, your theoretical calculation should give you an even higher result, as a generation is only somewhere between 16 and 30 years, not the 40 years you postulate – the length of a generation is simply the average age at which people have children – and that number has always been far below 40.
But here is a little factoid you need to know: Genetic studies have shown that all humans alive today descend from one specific female who lived in the African Rift valley approximately 150 000 years ago. She was of course not the only human female alive at that time, but the offspring of the other females living at that time did not leave any descendents who survive to the present day. Homo sapiens sapiens has been around for roughly 200 000 years, according to the latest figures we have.
Lastly I should point out that your holy book has not contributed one iota to human knowledge and human survival – quite the contrary.
Comment by Hendrik — August 5, 2008 @ 11:22 am |
No need, Andre van Coppenhage, to do this in Excel. The total number of rice grains on the chess board with 64 squares is 2^64—1, or 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 rice grains. (“^” here means “raised to the power of.”)
Similarly, the naïve calculation you have presented us with yields 2*(2.5/2)^2,500, or 3.767,580,286,305,937,674,294,913,802,379,7*10^242.
But the basic flaw in your calculation is that your silly population growth model doesn’t take into account people dying from generation to generation. It wrongly assumes that every couple produces on average 2.5 offspring each and every generation, which is a patently absurd assumption. You really, really should inform yourself better before putting forward such twaddle, in this case on the subject of population growth models.
And also about the fact that bones eventually decay, mostly by acid leaching mediated by carbon dioxide dissolved in water.
Comment by Con-Tester — August 5, 2008 @ 11:25 am |
Andre, read here about the Genographic Project sponsored by National Geographic and IBM. This specific page allows you to trace the progress of man from Africa across the world:
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
Does your book have anything to teach us on this subject?
Comment by Hendrik — August 5, 2008 @ 11:52 am |
Con-tester #197: I did not even look at Andre’s math, but of course it makes perfect sense that it would include a huge thought error
Comment by Hendrik — August 5, 2008 @ 11:55 am |
No need for any further comments on Andre van Coppenhagen’s totally ignoramuskis math and argumentative ability; Con-Tester and Hendrik will suffice. What grates my arse is the absolute scientific incompetence of these fundies and then they have the gall to even present it as fact. As I said before; pig shit for brains.
Comment by Savage — August 5, 2008 @ 12:26 pm |
Dear Rochelle
I am writing to you and only to you. I really do not want to get involved in a conversation or an argument with these people because they are spiritually dead and have no sign of love in their hearts. I am trying to make you understand not to get involve into arguments like these because arguments wont get you anywhere but when you start to pray for them that is where the true power lies. God says in His word that the prayer of the righteous has much power.
I truly feel sorry for them, but the Word tells you that it is senseless to get into arguments like these. You know what the Word says about someone without the Love; they are just making a noise (1 Cor. 13). And furthermore it is like talking to them in a language they do not understand. Everything you say to them they will use against you but they don’t really understand what you are talking about.
I can see they are hurting you and I think this whole thing about Angus was started because these people most probably need attention in their empty lives and they knew if they picked on someone as special as Angus they would get the attention they are craving for. Remember it does not mean if they say something it is the truth, you don’t have to believe what they saying and I don’t think Angus will feel offended because he also knows the truth and has found the real Truth! Jesus was also treated like this when He was on earth and yet He did not try to defend Himself, because He knew the truth. For ages people are trying all sorts of theories about whom He was, was He married, was He homosexual or what ever. If He was not that important why are they forever digging into who He was? And they all get attention they are craving for and even making more money than any preacher with it, and yet these people have no problem with that! (e.g. Divinci Code Movie, Jesus Christ Superstar)
This person tells you how angry is about things he has no control over, and emphasize on the fact the Christians actually believe in God, and that is what I believe in this case are the real problem. God is the only one that is really in control of all situations and these people cannot handle that, because they would like to be in control. Someone in an earlier statement called God a control freak, and you will only know if someone is a control freak if you know what a control freak does!!
They say they do not believe in God, but yet they call Him nasty names!! How can you call a nothing names?? And that is something else they cannot handle because they know deep in there hearts that He does exists, but they don’t have to accept Him, which is fine because it is our own choice that we want to believe in. Humans are created with a little piece missing within our inner man calling out to a Devine Power. Until you find God and He fills the emptiness you won’t have peace.
God tell us in Ps 50 that He is not like us, His in not like a human and they cannot understand that. They want to figure out how God operates and the frustration of not be able to is actually getting the better of them. Again they are struggling with the fact that they are not in control of this world.
So they are angry with Him and you know He understands that and will deal with them may be His own time and own way. The day they meet Him they won’t be able to resist His Love and you and I know that.
What I wanted to tell you is that you will not convince them to believe otherwise. Only the Holy Spirit can convince them to believe otherwise. All we can do for them is to pray for them and nobody can stop you to pray for someone, not even they can. What they say and how they treat the whole issue around Christianity cannot change the fact that Jesus died on the Cross for sinners like them. If they believe it or not, He still did it! God knows every detail of everybody’s lives and also theirs. I can also tell how I experienced God’s miracles in my life but I won’t let people like these make out that it was a mistake or coincidence. I share the wonderful miracle about your brother and give God praise for that because I believe it happened!
I grew up in a house where Faith was a reality and no person will convince me that it was a ghost or a spook that was involved. I have experienced a Living God and these people have no idea how empty their lives are without it. The sad thing is that they won’t loose anything if they would have tried to find out who Jesus, or God the Father really is. It is just their human opinion and that is dead. You know reading the Bible with only knowledge and not Faith is only dead information that will bring more death to your spirit and that is what happened here. And Faith is a gift from God.
They have a lot to say about Christians, and how cruel God in the Bible is but they are not referring from the Bible, they are using other sources. I don’t think they even know how to Study the Bible. In the same way they emphasize on scriptures of cruelty I can answer them with scriptures of unconditional Love, forgiveness and mercy. So it is really senseless to play this game with them.
God has mercy with everybody that draws closer to Him. May be one day they will learn that and realize it was only the presence of the Only Living God in there lives that they were missing and seeking for. May be it wont happen to them, and that is not in our hands because we don’t have any say in other people’s lives.
These people tend to attack Christian believes but yet if you would investigate Muslims, you will find real cruelty close to home, where in Muslim countries woman are really abused. They don’t say anything about that. They don’t say anything about Muslims killing innocent people in the name of their god (e.g. the World Trade Centre).
That is why I tell you their information is incomplete and so limited, and based on empty facts and their intention is to try and aggravate or sadden the Christians. No where did I find that Christians are perfect or Christians have it all. In fact, you become a Christian when you realize that you are a sinner and need God’s mercy in your live, not because you believed you are perfect. They seem to know so much about Christians and yet they do not believe in what we believe in? It is amazing how much people like this have to say about things they have no idea off. Where do they find the impression that Christians must have everything the best and only live in peace and harmony? Christians remain human and we all live in a broken world where they are a part of it. Christians eat as other people do, they get sick, get stuck in traffic; have to pay bills etc. like all other humans. We encounter exactly the same as other people do, it is just the way we handle our obstacles that is different and we might have a total different attitude toward the outcome or a total different outlook.
I have really made bad choices in my live and I had to live with the consequences of my choices while being a Christian. When you become a Christian, God does not take over your brain, and your senses. It is about a relationship. As far as I know, a relationship exists of two parties. He does not take over anything or force Himself into situations. We are submitting to follow His ways but we still make mistakes because we remain humans. How can I blame anybody for my bad choices but myself for it? The secret anyways lies in how I am going to handle it and whose advice I want to follow? But this I can tell you, when I repented and cried to God to help me to get out of there, He gave we the wisdom and the peace to do it and today I can only give Him the praise for it, because if I had to ask advise from one of these people I would probably been not alive anymore!!
There are many things we don’t have the answers for, but do we really need to know all the answers. Could we as humans handle all the answers to the problems of this world? That is why we cannot exist without God. This morning I was listing to a preacher telling about a young homosexual man calling him to his deathbed. He was dying of AIDS. He was so afraid of dying. The preacher asked him if He knew Jesus and he replied that he did and yet he lived in sin for all these years, and now that he is dying he knew he was on his way to hell because of the choices he made. He wanted to know if there was anyway he could change this before he was dying. God did not condemn him to hell like these people refer to. Our own believes and choices will determine where we want to go. God does invite everybody to have Eternal Life but we need to repent from our wrong and evil ways and He will have mercy upon us. These people have it all twisted and I share the sympathy you have for them. Why did the dying young man call a Christian to pray with Him? God did not condemn this young man, but God actually had mercy upon him and a week later he died in peace. Peace is not something you can buy or have tested and implanted from a laboratory, you can only get real Peace from God.
They talk about God as if He should clean up all the messes humans cause, as if He is their servant and yet they do not know who they are talking about. He is the King of all kings, the Lord of all lords and nobody can change that. The mere fact that these people deny Him does not make it any bit of the truth and God does not need there acceptance. In fact, the day will come when they realize that they actually need Him!
I am praying with you my friend and we will keep on praying for people like this. Let the Peace of God be with you and give you Wisdom and protect you precious heart.
Regards
Joe
Comment by joe — August 5, 2008 @ 12:35 pm |
Con-tester #197. I have now looked at Andre’s math in #194 and according to me he does not make the mistake that you accuse him of?
His formula does contain a logical flaw: If one starts with the 2 people then strictly according to his formula they will have 2,5 children. But of course nobody has 0,5 children, so one should write (using Excel notation) =rounddown(2/2*2.5,0) Which means his population will stay stuck at 2 persons forever.
Comment by Hendrik — August 5, 2008 @ 12:36 pm |
Joe – I am so grateful that I came back and read what you wrote. I went away at lunchtime and just prayed that if there was someone out there reading this, that they would just back me up. Thank you so much for responding to the Holy Spirit and writing that entry. The tears I now cry arent the same ones as earlier, but are ones of thanksgiving that the Lord sent you to this site to post what you did, and that there are people in the world who will stand up for their beliefs no matter what the rest say. Thank you Joe. God bless you. Rochelle
Comment by Rochelle — August 5, 2008 @ 12:51 pm |
Dear Rochelle
This is just proof of how Great our God is and that He has no boundries or limitations and nobody can put Him in a little box.
Life is a journey which you can enjoy no matter what the circumstances because we know our God is in control and that we don’t have to carry the world’s problems on our own!
Joe
Comment by joe — August 5, 2008 @ 12:57 pm |
Joe #201: “I really do not want to get involved in a conversation or an argument with these people because they are spiritually dead and have no sign of love in their hearts.”
YOU guys are spiritually dead and you don’t know the first thing about love. As Con-Tester has so many times pointed out, your understanding of love is the adulation of the teachings of a warped story book written by an ancient tribe. You have no proof of the existence of your god AND that he wrote these stories, but you keep harping on the same fucking crap. Shit guys, come with concrete proof!
Joe #201: “I am praying with you my friend and we will keep on praying for people like this.”
You can pray all you want Joe, maar die wind waai wes.
Comment by Savage — August 5, 2008 @ 1:03 pm |
Dear Savage
Like I said before I have no intention to argue with you because it is like talking to my dog about God! The chance whould actually be better for him to understand than you. You do not have any understanding of my God and I do have any intention to proof Him to you because I believe He is alive and that is enough for me. Enjoy your empty little life. What I believe in is my own business and what you believe in is your business. You do not have the gift of Faith and you have no idea what I am talking about. So what exactly is the point of talking to you. Like I said from the beginning I was talking to Rochelle. And you are not Rochelle.
Joe
Comment by joe — August 5, 2008 @ 1:11 pm |
Joe #206: “Like I said from the beginning I was talking to Rochelle. And you are not Rochelle.”
When you join this blog you cannot demand who you want to talk to and who not. You reflect the known characteristic of the fundie who looks down at the secular world with contempt because you were gifted with the god-meme. This is not a gift; it is a disease.
Joe #206: “You do not have any understanding of my God and I do have any intention to proof Him to you because I believe He is alive and that is enough for me.”
You have no intention to prove the existence of your god for the very simple reason: you cannot. “Easy answer; now go away.” I and others will not go away. And I have a very good understanding of your god you created in your own minds; shit, and I don’t believe he exists and you surely created a pitiful figure. I’m sure if you had to rewrite the Bible today you could do a much better job.
Comment by Savage — August 5, 2008 @ 1:28 pm |
Hendrik wrote (#202 or thereabouts):
I think you may have misunderstood my criticism, probably because I wasn’t clear enough. Andre van Coppenhagen’s model assumes that in each and every generation on average 2.5 offspring per couple will survive to reproductive age and will then form couples before reproducing at the same rate, which translates to a 25% (= 2.5/2-1) population growth rate per generation. In reality, however, many of these offspring will die before reaching maturity and fail to reproduce. A death rate of this kind of just 20% (i.e. 80% of the offspring survive to reproduce), keeps Andre van Coppenhagen’s population size uniformly at two individuals across all generations.
Still, it should be clear that (a) the model is inadequate for both very small and very large populations (but for different reasons),