Religion intoxicates with irrationality
“If religion isn’t the greatest threat to rationality and scientific progress, what is?” asks Daniel Dennett in a recent article in The Guardian.
Again, the irrational behaviour of 60 000 men, calling themselves mighty but being closer to stupid and naïve, to believe all the nonsense the potato farmer Angus Buchan tells them, shows how great this threat is.
Recently I heard that the Stellenbosch scientist and lecturer Dave Pepler, also well-known as the presenter of the excellent nature program Groen, left a class where he had just completed a lecture on the importance of evolutionary science, when he was accosted by a group of students from the Shofar sect. They spat at him and hurled abuse at him.
This is the influence pastor Fred May of Shofar has on people one would expect to be intelligent. This is the type of threat religion has in store every day against rational thinking and scientific discoveries and findings.
Dennett, director for the Centre of Cognitive Studies at Tufts University in Massachusetts, emphasises that perhaps television or addictive video games are more dangerous to science than religion. “But although each of these scourges – mixed blessings, in fact – has the power to overwhelm our best judgement and cloud our critical faculties, religion doesn’t just disable, it honours the disability.
“People are revered for their capacity to live in a dream world, to shield their minds from factual knowledge and to make the major decisions of their lives by consulting voices in their heads that they call forth by rituals designed to intoxicate them,” writes Dennett.
Religion is nothing less than intoxication with irrationality. As Dennett points out, “You don’t have to be religious to be crazy, but it helps. Indeed, if you are religious, you don’t have to be crazy in the medically certifiable sense to do massively crazy things. And – this is the worst of it – religious faith can give people a sort of hyperbolic confidence (spat at a scientist who does not believe in your holy book), an utter unconcern about whether they might be making a mistake, that enables acts of inhumanity that would otherwise be unthinkable.”
Dennett writes that although other institutions or traditions (sports or art) may encourage a certain amount of irrationality, “only religion demands its as a sacred duty.”
Imagine those 60 000 men blindly following the chips farmer “transferring all that respect, loyalty and intense devotion from an imaginary being – God – to something real: the wonderful world of goodness we and our ancestors have made and of which we are now the stewards.”
Pepler recently referred me to that wonderful chapter/episode in Jacob Bronowski’s book and television series The Ascent of Man. In the chapter “Knowledge or Certainty” Bronowski writes about the greatest strength of science, that it never believes in certainty. At Auschwitz, he steps into a pond of water where the Nazis, so certain of their truths, scattered the ashes of Jews they killed in the concentration camp. He writes:
“This is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of some four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave (my emphasis). This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods.
“Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known, we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgement in science stands on the edge of error, and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible. In the end the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: ‘I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken’ “.
Unfortunately, the Shofar students who spat at Pepler and threw abuse at him, did that because of religious arrogance. Because of religious dogma. But the most frightening, because of ignorance enhanced and strengthened by religion and its leaders.
“Indeed, if you are religious, you don’t have to be crazy in the medically certifiable sense to do massively crazy things.”
Yes, just go and see “There Will Be Blood”’ to see the crazy thing the religious nut in the film did for money.
Comment by Savage — May 15, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
“Recently I heard that the Stellenbosch scientist and lecturer Dave Pepler, also well-known as the presenter of the excellent nature program Groen, left a class where he had just completed a lecture on the importance of evolutionary science, when he was accosted by a group of students from the Shofar sect. They spat at him and hurled abuse at him.”
Those students are a bunch of primitive cavemen and women, extremely delusional, and very dangerous. I wonder if they stop for 1 second and ask themselves: “What would jesus do?”
I wonder why they feel so threatened by a scientist, if they believe so blindly that they are right and the scientist is wrong?
It is that dumb mother fucker Shofar that is to blame here. Don’t think for 1 minute he didn’t put them up to this. Don’t think for 1 minute he didn’t tell them they will be soldiers for jesus fucking christ.
The real dumb mother fuckers are actually those who listen to him (Shofar) and follow his preachings. And who gives him their money. If Shofar was running any country, there will be blood everywhere. These guys love the power, and they love to see violence and blood, all for JFC.
Go and see the movie “September Dawn”. Based on a true story, it shows what happens when religious leaders feel threatened, and how much blood they are willing to spill to easy their own minds.
Once again, back to the same old shit. These arsehole never stop to ask themselves the simple question: “What would jesus do?”
But that would be very inconvenient for them. It would mean that they can’t act like a bunch of bullies. Like a bunch of primitive cavemen. Like a bunch of ignorant vigilantes.
Seriously, spitting at someone you don’t agree with? What the hell is that?
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
“Fanaticism and fear is forever busy, and needs feeding! And so Your Honor, with banners flying, and with drums beating, we’ll be marching backward! Backward through the glorious ages of that 16th century, when bigots burned the man who dared bring enlightenment and intelligence to the human mind!” - Inherit the Wind
You can watch that scene on YouTube, here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DQUAuNUvw&eurl=http://tudorie.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/teaser-inherit-the-wind-soon-ceu/
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 4:47 pm
Fred May is a seriously delusional and very dangerous man. He is also making a lot of money from the stupid.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
From Shofar’s own website:
“In 1989 the Lord led Pastor Fred May and his wife Lucille to settle in the Stellenbosch area. Both Fred and Lucille had been actively involved in ministry since their conversions and were enjoying a sabbatical at the time. During this break the Lord placed a burden to intercede for Stellenbosch on Ps. Fred’s heart, especially when he saw that occult practitioners had become bold enough to gather in public séances and do door-to-door visits.
By the middle of 1991 Ps. Fred had started to disciple a small group of converts who joined him in spiritual warfare and intercession. The Holy Spirit directed them through prophecy to focus their prayers on the University of Stellenbosch and to take to the streets in praise and worship. In March 1992 God opened a door for this fledgling ministry to register as a student society and start ministering to the students in all earnest.
God, in His wisdom, had chosen to reach the community of Stellenbosch, which was greatly influenced by dead religion and racism, through a life-giving church that was born out of Ps. Fred and Lucille’s cross-cultural marriage. Despite initial misgivings the community of Stellenbosch – which to a large extent is the cradle of traditional religion and apartheid in South Africa – has embraced Shofar Christian Church and its calling to reach all nations and generations.
Shofar reached thousands of students through disciple making and leadership development and in 1998 did its first church plant by multiplying itself to the university’s Tygerberg campus. Shofar Christian Church has since grown into a fully-fledged family church and has planted churches in Worcester, Pretoria, Windhoek and London, while ministries in Retreat, Franschhoek and Macassar have recognized Ps. Fred’s leadership and also joined the ever growing Shofar Family.
Shofar uses Foundations, Cell Groups and Bible Schools to fulfill its vision of taking the whole gospel to the whole world! “
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:01 pm
“In March 1992 God opened a door for this fledgling ministry to register as a student society and start ministering to the students in all earnest.”
The University of Stellenbosch should ban these organisations from doing anything religious on campus. Shofar, and Fred May have no right to interfere with anything academic. If these student insist on The University of Stellenbosch to stop teaching science classes, they should be expelled. No student has the right to deny another student an education of his/her choice. These ignorant zealots will be a lot happier in some other dumb ass religious university.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:09 pm
“During this break the Lord placed a burden to intercede for Stellenbosch on Ps. Fred’s heart, especially when he saw that occult practitioners had become bold enough to gather in public séances and do door-to-door visits.”
“…occult practitioners….” what an arrogant fucker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He and his organisation, Shofar, is nothing but a fucking CULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
“….occult practitioners had become bold enough to gather in public séances and do door-to-door visits”
What does he call what they do on the Campus of Stellenbosch? What does he call his cult members sitting in science classes and heckling the lectures, what does he call his cult members spitting at scientists in public?
Fred May, you are nothing but a CULT leader, a very ignorant and very stupid and very dangerous man. Go and preach your shit somewhere else, and leave academic institutions alone, it is no place for you and your cavemen.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:17 pm
I am a student at stellenbosch and I cannot believe that anyone who wants to study a science would do such a thing. Would they not have a stronger belief in their chosen subject of study? I would probably not have been so surprised at this if it was a couple of theology students on a christian youth camp. This just reminds me of a conversation I had recently with a first year student who is converting from the Anglican church to Catholicism. First I was astounded at the fact that having grown up in one really restricting religious view, he was casting himself into an alcatraz of religious bull. My point is that his view on knowledge is that “Ignorance is bliss”. The hypocrisy behind that statement was so blatant. Here he is studying a BA degree in Humanities, at a world class university which is based on the study of science behind subjects. If you feel that learning scientific fact is against your ignorance, I mean, religious view point, you should not even think about going to school let alone university. Knowledge should not be wasted so. At least when the rapture comes we will have the freedom to teach and learn science with no limitations.
Comment by jacolene — May 15, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
“…spiritual warfare and intercession.”
Sounds militant and fanatical to me.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:22 pm
Jacolene wrote: “I am a student at stellenbosch and I cannot believe that anyone who wants to study a science would do such a thing”
Yes Jacolene, I agree, but the problem is when people who does not even study a science, start to interfere with science classes, teachers and campuses.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:25 pm
http://prometheusongebonde.wordpress.com/2007/02/
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:29 pm
http://prometheusongebonde.wordpress.com/category/shoko-asahara/
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:30 pm
http://prometheusongebonde.wordpress.com/category/university-education/
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:31 pm
Does anyone know what The University of Stellenboisch has to say about all this?
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 5:37 pm
McBrolloks # 13: Has anyone of Shofar’s cult members, or the main man himself, even attempted to answer any of the questions? No, of course not. That would require some rational thinking which is totally lacking there!
Comment by Savage — May 15, 2008 @ 5:56 pm
Here is the website for Shofar:
http://www.shofaronline.org/index.html
They have that other dumb arsehole Angus Buchan as a reference there. These guys always look after each other.
Q&A:
” Are members compelled to make financial donations to the church?
No, not in the least. All giving is done on a completely voluntary basis. Contributions of individual members are not tracked either. Financial giving is regarded as a sacred act of worship and therefore this is an area onto which the leadership never trespasses. This ensures that every member has the freedom and the space to act only on the basis of personal conviction where there is an absolute absence of external constraint. ”
“Financial giving is regarded as a sacred act of worship…”
In other words, if you love god or jesus, you are committing a “sacred act of worship” when you give your money to this CULT.
” How does the church manage its finances?
Shofar operates as an Association Not For Gain and is registered as such with the Department of Social Development 031-463 NPO. Its constitution allows for religious non-profitable activities overseen by a financial committee. Shofar also enjoys tax exempt status at SARS. This exemption is reviewed annually and audited financial statements are submitted for scrutiny to the Tax Exemption Unit of SARS.
The financial affairs of the church are overseen by a financial committee, consisting of qualified and capable senior members of the church. The church members are updated on the state of affairs at an Annual General Meeting.
Income is solely derived from voluntary donations. The church teaches at its new members course that the church administration and community work depends on voluntary giving. All donations are received into the church’s bank account from where it is administered and accounted for. Full time pastors and employees receive approved salaries. The payroll system is administered by an employed Chartered Accountant and tax requirements are strictly complied with.”
“The church teaches at its new members course that the church administration and community work depends on voluntary giving.”
So, that sacred act of worship, namely giving your money to the cult, is taught in the mandatory class every wannabe new member has to attend. They also enjoy all their funds TAX FREE!!!!
“Does the church disregard / ignore science?
No, certainly not. We believe science to occupy an acutely significant place within a biblical Christian worldview. At the same time we reject the other extreme position – where science is deified (worshipped as a substitute for God). The Bible nevertheless provides a clear mandate for science. Here then lies the distinction – in how we relate to science. We accept all the facts of science but interpret these differently due to divergent presuppositions.
Secular humanism has its perspective framed by the dogmatic assumption that there is or can be no God, therefore no creator. We, on the other hand, assume the existence of God, as creator who grants mankind the sacred stewardship of creation. This mandate of stewardship is what historically has spawned the foundations of modern science in that many of the countries in which science has flourished are those with a traditionally Judeo-Christian worldview. As a result many of the celebrated pioneers of modern science were Christians who believed the Bible, honoured God as creator and embraced their sacred mandate as stewards of God’s creation. Some better known examples are: Sir Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, James Joule, James Clerk Maxwell, Michael Faraday, Louis Pasteur, Johannes Kepler etc. So too even today many of the world’s leading scientists prescribe to the same presuppositions and continue to make significant contributions to the development of science. This illustrates the fact clearly that, contrary to some claims, Biblical faith is by no means opposed nor detrimental to scientific research and advancement.
With regard to our position on the history of origins – of the universe, life and man (which is sometimes known as the creation versus evolution debate) we say the following: Both creation and evolution deal with interpreting history, not science, since neither party can observe or repeat the past to prove what they believe. Both sides have certain assumptions or convictions about the past. It is thus not an issue of faith versus science, but rather that of science practised within two opposing paradigms or more specifically two opposing belief systems – one which acknowledges God as creator and one which refuses to. Since the Bible was written as neither a history nor a science text book there are necessarily many facts it does not reveal. Man therefore, has been afforded the opportunity to explore and to discover the remainder through historical and scientific research within a creationist framework.”
Hogwash!!!!!!!!! There is no room for religion in science. There is no compatibility with the two. Shofar and that ignoramus Fred May can’t make up the rules as it suits them.
“It is thus not an issue of faith versus science, but rather that of science practised within two opposing paradigms or more specifically two opposing belief systems – one which acknowledges God as creator and one which refuses to.”
“It is thus not an issue of faith versus science.” - Then stay away from the science classrooms with your bunch of henchmen, you fucking arseholes!!! Stay away from science teachers. Stay in your church, and leave the other people on this planet in peace.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 6:18 pm
Here is the IFCC (International Federation of Christian Churches) statement. This is what Shofar stands by:
” We believe in the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament in their original writing as fully inspired of God and accept them as the supreme and final authority for faith and life.
We believe in one God, eternally existing in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
We believe that Jesus Christ was begotten of the Father, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary and is true God and true man.
We believe that God created man in His own image; that man sinned and thereby incurred the penalty of sin which is death, physical and spiritual; that all human beings inherit a sinful nature which issues (in the case of those who reach the point of moral responsibility) in actual transgression involving personal guilt.
With regards to sexual behaviour, we believe in heterosexual relationships between a natural man and a natural woman within the confines of lawful matrimony. Adherence to this stated principle of sexual behaviour is an inherent requirement with International Federation of Christian churches IFCC.
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins a substitutionary sacrifice according to the Scriptures and that all who believe in Him are justified on the grounds of His shed blood.
We believe in the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus, His ascension into heaven and His present life as our High Priest and Advocate.
We believe in the personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We believe that all who repent of their sins and receive the Lord Jesus Christ by faith are born again of the Holy Spirit and thereby become children of God.
We believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, empowering and equipping believers for service, with the accompanying supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit and in fellowship with the Holy Spirit. We believe in the divinely ordained ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher.
With regards to submission to authority, we believe in the principle of being in authority because you are under authority. As such, it is understood that IFCC membership shall be subject to submission to authority in matters pertaining to church governance, doctrine and personal behaviour.
We believe in the resurrection of both the just and unjust, the eternal blessedness of the redeemed, and the eternal banishment of those who have rejected the offer of salvation.
We believe that the one true Church is the whole company of those who have been redeemed by Jesus Christ and regenerated by the Holy Spirit; that the local church on earth should take its character from this conception of the Church Spiritual and therefore, that the new birth and personal confession of Christ are essential for Church membership.
We believe that the Lord Jesus appointed two ordinances, Baptism in water and the Lord’s Supper, to be observed as acts of obedience and as perpetual witnesses to the cardinal facts of the Christian faith; Baptism is the immersion of the believer in water as a confession of identification with Christ in burial And resurrection and the Lord’s supper is the partaking of the emblems symbolic of the Saviour’s broken body and shed blood, in remembrance of his Sacrificial death, till He comes.
We believe that divine healing was provided for in the Old Testament and is an integral part of the Gospel.
We believe the Bible teaches that without holiness no man can see the Lord. We believe in the doctrine of sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of new birth and continuing until the consummation of salvation.
The church is open to any further truth, which the Holy Spirit may illuminate from the Scriptures.”
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
From the IFCC (International Federation of Christian Churches) statement:
“With regards to sexual behaviour, we believe in heterosexual relationships between a natural man and a natural woman within the confines of lawful matrimony. Adherence to this stated principle of sexual behaviour is an inherent requirement with International Federation of Christian churches IFCC.”
So, if you are gay, you can not join this cult, sorry. Isn’t this statement a bit homophobic? Isn’t that the same as been a racist, but on the grounds of sexual orientation in stead of skin color?
So Fred May, is this your official stance on sexual orientation, or just an oversight?
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 6:27 pm
From the IFCC (International Federation of Christian Churches) statement:
“With regards to submission to authority, we believe in the principle of being in authority because you are under authority. As such, it is understood that IFCC membership shall be subject to submission to authority in matters pertaining to church governance, doctrine and personal behaviour.”
Here is that old control thing again. You have to think how we tell you, do what we tell you, fuck who we give you permission to, follow our orders, or go directly to hell, do not pass begin, do not collect R200.00.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
From the IFCC (International Federation of Christian Churches) statement:
“The church is open to any further truth, which the Holy Spirit may illuminate from the Scriptures.”
So this is where science gets kicked in the nutts. It can’t be true if god didn’t reveal it in the scriptures.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
From the IFCC (International Federation of Christian Churches) statement:
“We believe in the personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Good for you. But if he comes back, do you really believe that he will condone what you are doing Fred May? If he comes back, you are well and truly fucked Fred May. He will kick your arse!!!!!!!!!
Comment by McBrolloks — May 15, 2008 @ 6:34 pm
George, ek is nou nogal intrigued - het hulle regtig op Pepler gespoeg? Ernstig nou?
Comment by Johan Swarts — May 15, 2008 @ 11:31 pm
Johan Swarts,
“George, ek is nou nogal intrigued - het hulle regtig op Pepler gespoeg?”
You are intrigued? tsk tsk….i have much stronger emotions… yuo should “let the ghosts go. Let them cover their socketless eyes with their fleshless hands and forever fade from the memory of man.” Ingersoll (quote from memory).
Comment by Objective — May 16, 2008 @ 5:22 am
I study at Stellenbosch, have done so for the past 2 1/2 years. I have been to Dave Pepler’s lectures twice so far, everytime he presented his information in a very rationaly, logical way. He even did his best to keep it objective, which is difficult seeing that his presentation was about evolution. But nonetheless although there was a slight bias towards Darwin and his compatriots there was nothing in his speech that I would have deemed insulting or incitive. But then again, my tolerance for these thing is very large. Seeing as I pretty much despise religions and their institutions. Anyways, back to the story. After the first year (2006) he did recieve some flak from one or two of the more active “cults” in stellenbosch. He then delivered an even more placating speech in 2007. After which he was approached by two male students each carrying a bible. These then proceded to spit at his feet and insult him. To my knowledge there weren’t any incidents like that this year. There was also an incident last year where a group of religious fanatics, or as I like to call them assholes, boycotted a lecture on evolution. The story was in the university newspaper “Die Matie”. The funny thing is that, atheists go around leaving everyone alone and keeping their thoughts to themselves. I used to be like that, then I just got sick and tired of being stopped in the middle of the street by these wankers wearing that sickening smile and having that glazed over look in their eyes, wanting me to join God, explain myself as to why I don’t open my heart to the lord and all that bullcrap. So lately I’ve become very vocal, I don’t keep my thoughts to myself in hushed whispers, I don’t euthanise the potency of my statements by watering them down, and I sure as hell do not take religious people into consideration. If I have to deny the core of my being, my philosiphies, my ideas, just so that I can make life comfortable for some idiot who does not show me the same respect. Then I renege all prior allegiances I have with that person and I go all out. The scourge of religion has blighted this world for far too long. Only once we can transcend that inate need to belive in a greater power(s) especially when it’s manifested in the form of an almighty god, only then will be as a species be able to move in one direction towards a greater good. Another thing that pisses me off, christians always bitch and moan about how they are being persecuted. No shit you twits, what you have been doing to various other minorties, cultures and even entire civilisations, has simply become too much for certain people. The game has been reversed. Why must Germany pay reparations for WW2? Why must companies who made their business in Apartheid South Africa pay compensation? Why don’t we turn the tables and make the catholic church pay? Pay for the crusades? Pay for the systematic ethnic cleansings? Pay for the burning of so-called witches? Pay for the loss and corruption of dozens of cultures? The church was never meant to become such a powerful and rich state. Priests were meant to be paupers, living on a minimal wage and the kindness of the people, NOT driving Roll’s Royces and having a summer castle in the Alps.
To any christians who dare read this.
I have been atheist for the better part of 10 years.
I did recently find this god person.
I was going through a severe depression and it seemed like a good idea at the time.
He did not help me, he is NOT loving.
I have since seen many people call to god for help, some of them very devout christians
Each and every time, nothing happened.
The only thing that keeps these people going is their near fanatical belief that “God has a plan for us, and this was meant to happen”
Some people are too stupid to realise that the only person who can make anything happen is you. You and You alone.
I have since many times uttered the words “F*** you god” and other much more blasphemous phrases. I am still alive, and healthier than ever, if anything, getting rid of this god thing completely has invigorated me. I am a better person for it.
But I waffle on.
A little bit of knowledge is not nearly as dangerous as a lot of ignorance.
Comment by Tiamat — May 16, 2008 @ 9:39 am
Thanks for your imput, Tiamat.
Comment by Renier — May 16, 2008 @ 11:07 am
input. tsk!
Comment by Renier — May 16, 2008 @ 11:08 am
Ag ja. Dit laat my dink aan diegene wat steeds bly verkondig dat Islam ‘n vreedsame en vredeliewende galoof is en dan dreig om enig iemand wat dit betwyfel as godslasterlike kaffers (in die oorspronklike sin van die woord) van die gras af te maak …
Comment by Karel de Pauw — May 16, 2008 @ 11:11 am
Karel, ek onthou nog ‘n plakaat wat een van die Moslem protestors gemaak het oor die Deense spotprente: “Kill those who say Islam is a violent religion”.
Comment by Renier — May 16, 2008 @ 12:17 pm
Russian doomsday cult siege ends
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7404318.stm
Comment by McBrolloks — May 16, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
Hi Tiamat. Welcome to the blog. Many here feel the way you do. These religious fuckers have been getting away with all this crap for way too long. The days where somebody who is a “man of god” gets treated with the utmost respect just because he is a “man of god” is over in my book. And these glazed eyed fucken wankers who want to tell us all about the good news gets quite a tongue lashing from me when they knock on my door, or stop me in the streets. I studied at Stellenbosch for 4 years, during the 1990’s, and was hoping that this crap would be a thing of the past in the new millenium, but looks like it is worse that ever. Academic institutions should ban all sects, cults and religions from their campuses. Leave the schools for learning, and use the churches and caves for worshipping in.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 16, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
Good point Savage:
“McBrolloks # 13: Has anyone of Shofar’s cult members, or the main man himself, even attempted to answer any of the questions? No, of course not. That would require some rational thinking which is totally lacking there!
Comment by Savage — May 15, 2008 @ 5:56 pm “
Comment by McBrolloks — May 16, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
Tiamat, your outpouring is indeed touching, coming from a young person as it does. I hope it will offer you some solace to know that many of us who post on this blog (and many who don’t) have gone through the same soul-searching, even mental and verbal torment, in our younger days. Hold your head high and stick to your guns, brother (or is it sister?) — sooner or later you will start mellowing in your vehement attitude against these self-appointed disciples of god. Hopefully you will then be grateful that you can lay down your head at night and be honestly grateful that you had never hurt another living being in defending your convictions (like I have, regrettably). Bertrand Russell may be a good reference in this regard.
BTW: Why does Ti-amat so much resemble the Latin for “I love you”?,
Comment by Oom Stoffel — May 16, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
“Sho far” we have have been too intoxicated to say anything intellagant (ish that shpelt correctly? I can’t shee sho nishe.)
Comment by Bill Fleetwood — May 17, 2008 @ 6:03 am
“In 1989 the Lord led Pastor Fred May and his wife Lucille to settle in the Stellenbosch area. Both Fred and Lucille had been actively involved in ministry since their conversions and were enjoying a sabbatical at the time. During this break the Lord placed a burden to intercede for Stellenbosch on Ps. Fred’s heart, especially when he saw that occult practitioners had become bold enough to gather in public séances and do door-to-door visits”.
These people seem even too dumn to figure out where to go, where to settle and what to do next without the Lord personally leading them and giving them step by step instructions. Poor old Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan and Bill Gates and other geniuses such as they have to do without any personal attention from the Lord, but these nitwits get step by step “leadings” and instructions from the Ruler of the Universe himself. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what is bigger in these people: their lust for power over other people; their love for upper-middle-class kitsch, or their damn egos. And then they proudly tell you that not only did the Lord himself push them onto hard-working, honest, thinking people’s turf and into their faces, but uncle Angus Buchan endorses all that.
Did they really spit at the lecturer, or is this just a story? Really snotty bunch, hey? Perhaps the other students should pour buckets of thoroughbred bulldog drool all over them during lecture time, just because they dared to enter a university, with no brain.
Comment by Bill Fleetwood — May 17, 2008 @ 6:22 am
I bet if Fred May really does start hearing voices, he would not believe it as being the voice of god anyway. These fuckers know they have never heard any voice of god ever. They just believe they did, in some other mysterious way, heard god talk to them by giving them a sign or something. God can’t spell anything out, these nuts have to guys what he is telling them. But they are quick to justify all their actions by saying: “god told me to do this, and that.”
Looney tunes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by McBrolloks — May 17, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Oom Stoffel wrote:
BTW: Why does Ti-amat so much resemble the Latin for “I love you”?,
Nah, Tiamat is the Babylonian god(dess) of the sea and primordial chaos.
Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it that I found some like minded individuals here. I have gone too long without a proper, constructive way in which to express my (out)rage at the bullshit that religion keeps perpetuating in this world. But it all basically came to a crux when I heard the story about how certain schools/PTAs are pushing that creation “science” (a laughable concept in itself) be taught at school. That’s where I reached the point of enough is enough. I’m restricted in my options as to how I can proceed in protest against this. Mainly because all the sects and cults in Stellenbosch would descend upon me with all their self-righteous wrath. My wit isn’t sharp enough to cut through thick skulls just yet. Which is why I have done this, I created a facebook group “keep god OUT of schools”. I am proud to say that since then 2 of my friends have stopped speaking to me. Did I stop speaking to them when they joined their little christiany groups? No. So all this bullcrap about being tolerant and accepting is once again. FALSE. I’ll give them that the bible has one or two good life lessons in it, maybe a good bed time story or two. Even it’s fair share of action and horror. But beyond that there is nothing divine about it. Especially since a bunch of Roman senators got to vote as to what shall be put in and left out. The ten commandments, pfft, what a joke. Those are pretty much common sense. In fact they even restrict some of human nature. I am completely atheistic, but a while back I did some reading into satanism, and I must say. The Satanic commandments are way more appealing than the christian, jewish or islamic ones are. Read up on it, trust me it’s worth it.
I would just like to thank everyone for the feedback, up until now I have been banned from a few sites for being rather verbal on the subject matter. But I feel at home here.
On a last note, I love how every christian I have met up until now, assumes this stance of superiority just because they have the “lord” on their side. But when you assume the same superiority, because everything you are and have, you worked for yourself, you sweated blood and tears to get there, they immediately try and shoot you down about pride being sinful and some such bullshit.
I apologise for not being as verbose or coherent as I was yesterday, the day has been long and the night will prove to be even longer. I promise to return soon enough with a proper statement.
Comment by Tiamat — May 17, 2008 @ 5:42 pm
# 36 “These *&%$ know they have never heard any voice of god ever. They just believe they did, in some other mysterious way”.
Yeah, they possibly do. But then, maybe they are just simply lying through their teeth? I mean, many people lie, so why not these guys? Lying is not very “spiritual”, though, don’t they know? I posted a story elsewhere about how one of these “god-showed-me-this-and-that” yokels put his foot in it for all to see, but I’ll post it here too:
The other night on the Total Bullshit Network (TBN) I saw a “Dr.” Richard Roberts (son of Oral Roberts, I believe) doing some really amazing miracles. He was sittting with a guy with a really wacky hairdo, getting all kinds of “revelations” from the Lord about sick people who were getting healed as he prayed for them through the T.V.. One case was particularly impressive: “The Lord is showing me someone who has had one lung removed on account of lung cancer, and” (NOW GET THIS!)”he is about to go in to have the other lung removed”, he said. Really! I’m not kidding! Do you guys think “Dr.” (definitely not an M.D., I’m sure) Roberts’ Lord really doesn’t know that people can’t live with no lungs? If this kind of thing does not make your bullshit detector beep itself out of batteries, you ain’t got a bullshit detector.
P.S. Would you believe that the guy with the wacky hairdo had a laptop and knew how to operate it with more than one finger!!? I say again: Pretty impressive stuff on the Total Bullshit Network.
Comment by Bill Fleetwood — May 18, 2008 @ 3:56 pm
Hehe, yeah I laugh at these sorry people
I was once privy to such a seminar thing. I unwittingly signed up to the wrong camp. At first I as weirded out, but then it got alot more interesting as more and more signs of severe psychosis’ started showing, the drooling, the loss of motor functions, the loss of speech, well, actually they didn’t lose it, it just degenerated into a form of mad raving about the lord and the holy spirit etc. I once read somewhere (don’t ask me where) that people who were having religious vision had the same areas in their brains active as those who were tripping on LSD. . . ’nuff said.
Comment by Tiamat — May 18, 2008 @ 6:24 pm
“Cape Town - The death of two Comrades runners last year could be a message from God that he was displeased with running the race on a Sunday, a Christian runner has suggested.

Hansie Louw, who was the leader of the African Christian Democratic Party in the Western Cape until last month, said in a statement at the weekend that he was asking all Christians to withdraw from the race to give a message to organisers.”
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2324533,00.html
:0
Just when one thinks there is no higher level of nutiness that can be attained.
Comment by Hendrik — May 19, 2008 @ 6:01 am
When I was a young boy, a five year old boy drownded one Sunday (between church services) when he fell into the swimming pool at their home. I remember it like yesterday. It really got me figuring. I’m still figuring. Perhaps Hansie Louw could enlighten us all about what pissed god off about this little chappie or his parents that day? Hey Hansie? How about it? Please, we pray, do tell.
Comment by Bill Fleetwood — May 19, 2008 @ 8:18 am
I don’t really have time for these blogs at the moment, but thought I’d give my 2 cents worth.
Firstly I want to say that if that report is true, I’m truly sorry that people who claim to be Christians would resort to that kind of tactic. People who spit at others have not received that kind of teaching out of the Bible. I accept taking strong stands against propaganda in the classroom, but taking a stand and abusing someone for holding a different view is unacceptable and inappropriate.
On the contrary, Jesus standard is the standard of love. Loving your neighbour, loving your enemy and even praying for your enemy and feeding your enemy - now that is appropriate.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 19, 2008 @ 10:22 am
Irrationality? Not really. FWIW I hate the term religion, however there is a lot of that around.
Think of it. There are probably only a handful of atheists in the world - around 1% I believe, but some figures I’ve seen claim up to 10%. Whatever the actual number is - it’s minor.
That means that 90% of the people in the world - by your standards - are cuckoo. What if - maybe - perhaps - those 90% in the world are correct that there is a God. What if that 90% of the people in the entire world are correct? What if they are all searching for something out there? What if they all see there fallen state before God? What if they are all trying to appease God in their own ways?
I think that says something about you really. That places you in the ignorant boat. That places you into the realm of irrational. Bible says that “The fool in his heart says there is no God”. You see that? He only SAYS this in his heart. It doesn’t say that you actually BELIEVE there is no God.
Back to the irrational. I think it is irrational that a God that hates sin - that all He can do about it is judge it - would even give us a second chance or even give people a chance to carry on living. Yet the fact that he has not only speaks volumes of His love for us. I think that is irrational. I also think that the fact that God gave His only Son to die on the Cross to take the punishment for our sins is also irrational. Then to even let me into Heaven one day is also irrational. It is just as irrational for me to help build houses for poor people in my spare time. It’s irrational for many people to volunteer time to give to many charitable organizations (not only Christians, although Christians motives are different). I think a lot of things in the world just don’t make sense. Like why Mugabe holds on to power or why people hate God so much to even deny His existence. So yes religion is irrational.
Thankfully though, I’m not religious. I also hate religion, because in the name of religion, people kill, they spit at others, they do all sorts of horrible things. What I do have though, is a relationship with the Living God. And no, it is not voices in my head. It is a true living relationship. God by His power has reawakened my spirit and I’m able to cry our “Abba Father”.
A pity that you keep confusing Christianity with religion.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 19, 2008 @ 10:57 am
Brendon wrote: “Firstly I want to say that if that report is true, I’m truly sorry that people who claim to be Christians would resort to that kind of tactic.”
I know they are Christians, but it is really shit behaviour for any human being.
Brendon wrote: “People who spit at others have not received that kind of teaching out of the Bible.”
Funny, I would take a bet that they would justify their behaviour on scripture, contempt for the evil professor that hates god and steals souls with the devil’s lie of evolution etc etc. Don’t excuse you holy book Brendon, as we discussed before, good can be taken from it yes, but so can the bad.
Brendon wrote: “I accept taking strong stands against propaganda in the classroom, but taking a stand and abusing someone for holding a different view is unacceptable and inappropriate.”
Propaganda in the classroom? Evolution is now propaganda in biology classrooms? Project much? Evolution is part of the friggen course! If the religious have an issue with evolution thay can go the science route and disprove it, with experiments, tests etc. Whining about their holy book is not going to influence the knowledge we obtained (thru science) about evolution. Spitting at the evil oposition is also not going to disprove evolution.
Brendon wrote: “On the contrary, Jesus standard is the standard of love. Loving your neighbour, loving your enemy and even praying for your enemy and feeding your enemy - now that is appropriate.”
What are you talking about? Love and feeding an enemy and such. Your Bible contradicts you:
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: (1:11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
and
“2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? (6:15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
Now Brendon, I could tell you that there are clues why 2 John 1:7 and 2 John 1:10 are in the Bible and why scholars think the darn Catholics inserted it MUCH later that 70AD. See this verse:
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
You see, there were 2 factions. The one faction said Jesus rose/came in the spirit and the catholics said no, he rose/came in the flesh. These verses about “in the flesh” is very interesting. Why would the other faction (Was it the Aryans?) not believe the “in the flesh” if it is clearly in the holy writings? Or was it perhaps *not* in the writings at that time? But please, you won’t believe a word I say anyway (and that’s good!). But it might be an adventure to go and research the, uhm big word… in.. inter.. interpolations, yeah, go and reasearch them a bit. Anyway, because of these interpolations I am able to knock your “loving” attitude towards infidels as unbiblical and therefore in contradiction with God’s command, as seen in 2 Corinthians 6:14. Or, of course, you can just ignore the contraditions and claim it is out of context. The catholics would NEVER dare to add a few pieces to the Bible, would they? Would it still be “god” inpired after all?
Comment by Renier — May 19, 2008 @ 11:17 am
Brendon Schafer wrote (#43 or thereabouts):
Deluded, not necessarily cuckoo.
Brendon Schafer wrote (#43 or thereabouts):
Even if they are, it doesn’t absolve them of having to provide evidence for their beliefs. That’s what you religious nuts don’t get, probably because the concept is so alien to your addled brains: if you believe any one thing without evidence, you can believe anything, no matter how absurd, without evidence, and that makes you a menace to a modern society – possibly a latent or passive menace, but a menace nonetheless.
Brendon Schafer wrote (#43 or thereabouts):
Then they are wasting their time and effort on a stupid delusion.
Brendon Schafer wrote (#43 or thereabouts):
Huh? On the contrary: to believe something, not because there’s any evidence for it, but simply because it’s nice is the height of ignorance and irrationality. And your bible is not evidence.
Brendon Schafer wrote (#43 or thereabouts):
And it’s an even greater pity that people like you keep confusing religion, christianity and fairytales of the same ilk with facts. Your god isn’t great; s/he isn’t even good; s/he’s a figment of your deeply schizoid sense of self-worth that on the one hand tells you you’re forever a miserable sinner (a station you can never escape), and on the other affords you the warm-and-fuzzy consolation that you’re one of your god’s special creatures.
Comment by Con-Tester — May 19, 2008 @ 11:36 am
Brendon wrote: “FWIW I hate the term religion, however there is a lot of that around.”
Oh yeah, the classic “My PC is not! a computer” delusion. It’s just that you think your religion is special and the only one true ™ religion amongst thousends. You therefore prefer to call it something else like “a personal relationship with my best friend Jesus, best friends forever”. It’s still religion. But hey, grab a dictionary and check it out. At least be honest with yourself.
Brendon wrote: “Think of it. There are probably only a handful of atheists in the world - around 1% I believe, but some figures I’ve seen claim up to 10%. Whatever the actual number is - it’s minor.”
I think I know where your figures comes from. 10% of the Amrican population is atheistic, but only 1% atheists in the prison population. Funny, perhaps all the atheists have really good satan inspired advocates.
Satan: Hallo. Satan and associates. How may I help you?
Atheist: Good afternoon oh grand master. I am in need of assistence. I just murdered 7 cats and I think the police are on to me.
Satan: Not a problem. We will make it all just “go away”.
Atheist: Thank you master goats-head-in-a-pentagram. Do you have an estimate on cost?
Satan: Three souls.
Atheist: Three souls???
Satan: Three Christian souls
Atheist: Damn. So how do I get you a Christian soul?
Satan: Find a good, honest Christian and corrupt him!
Atheist: Where can I find a good honest Christian?
Satan: You have a point. Let’s make the price a sixpack of beer and a virgin.
Atheist: Why the virgin?
Satan: I am am role-playing “god” tonight.
Brendon wrote: “What if that 90% of the people in the entire world are correct?”
If 90% of the world believed in fairies, would that make it true. If the whole world believed in ghosts, would that make it true? In the roman era, if 90% of the soldiers followed the Mithras cult, would that make it true? Is the truth determined by a democratic vote? No, so there goes your argument. Wave it good bye, it was so cute.
Brendon wrote:”Bible says that “The fool in his heart says there is no God”.
The Bible says all kinds of weird things, such like donkeys can talk if god posesses them. And of course the Bible is going to HAVE to deal with the issue of unbelief. It’s a friggen book about religion and belief in the first place.
Brendon wrote: “Back to the irrational. I think it is irrational that a God that hates sin - that all He can do about it is judge it - would even give us a second chance or even give people a chance to carry on living.”
What is irrational is an all-mighty god that messed up from the beginning and had to keep on trying. Too human if you ask me.Tower of Babylon, Noah’s Flood, Jesus etc.
Brendon wrote: “So yes religion is irrational.”
I must admit you just shocked the crap out of me. But if you are sincere in what you say, then why the fk do you still wonder at people rejecting all the irrational stuff? It’s hard to believe irrational stuff. Oh, wait…. 90% you said? So 90% of humanity believes in irrational stuff, and you thing they might be right? Of course, science will never explain why 90% of people believe in irrational stuff. But wait a moment. Denette did investigate this and came up with possible answers (still to be tested, like all science). So Brendon, if there was an evolutionary reason wht 90% of the people are really gullable and open to certain memes, would you give it a second thought? But if I may. A child (in stone age times) who did not obey the command from a parent, such as “Don’t swim in that river, it full of crocks”. What would happen to such a child? Would he live long enough to reproduce? Brendon, if 90% of the kids believed in Santa, then they must be right? Right? This is after all your own reasoning.
Brendon wrote: ” It’s irrational for many people to volunteer time to give to many charitable organizations (not only Christians, although Christians motives are different).”
Yes, Christians always wants to right to indoctri… eh, preach. It comes with the “love offering”, Bibles and blankets.
Brendon wrote: “Thankfully though, I’m not religious. I also hate religion, because in the name of religion, people kill, they spit at others, they do all sorts of horrible things.”
And here I still recall your defence of Shofar as being “another word based church”. But no, now that they were caught at being naughty (if it is true) they are no longer True Christians(tm), just common heathens. But Brendon here does not spit at evolution profs, no, a true Christian would never dream of doing such a thing. A true Christian takes no suger either. Brendon, trying to define your religion as “not” a religion is, uhm, not really working. Perhaps I may make a suggestion. What are people called who are convinced their make-believe friends are real?
Brendon wrote: “What I do have though, is a relationship with the Living God. And no, it is not voices in my head.”
We just call it “voices in your head” to be clear about what we think it is. I know the Christian version of “voices in the head” is much more sophisticated. Og ja, ze soft still voice of ze Holy Spirit zat screams at you and such. For all the other people who might be confused, in normal everyday terms it is called “gut feel”. There is no difference. If Christians get’s a gut feel about something, then it’s god speaking. If the gut feel was wrong, the Christian heard wrong. If the gut feel was right, HOSANNA, proof of Jesus. I had a gut feel my car would stop riding today. Sure it was god urging me to put some juice in. Anyway, sorry Brendon, the whole “God’s Voice” secret has just been exposed to the heathens. You may now call it by it’s more common names like, gut feel, emotion etc. I still remember church… “I ‘feel’ that god is saying…” tsk tsk, and I fell for it.
Brendon wrote: “A pity that you keep confusing Christianity with religion.”
A pity you think we are accepting you fundie made jargon. Christianity *is* a religion, even your flavour of Christianity. Sorry if you don’t like it and prefer to use other words to describe your religion.
Comment by Renier — May 19, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
Brendon wrote: “I also think that the fact that God gave His only Son to die on the Cross to take the punishment for our sins is also irrational.”
When you think about it, why would god have only 1 son? Why not a couple, and some daughters too? Why not a wife?
Maybe he is a discriminating sexist? Maybe he was invented by discriminating sexists? Not to mention delusional and ignorant.
Brendon wrote: “Thankfully though, I’m not religious. I also hate religion, because in the name of religion, people kill, they spit at others, they do all sorts of horrible things. What I do have though, is a relationship with the Living God. And no, it is not voices in my head. It is a true living relationship. God by His power has reawakened my spirit and I’m able to cry our “Abba Father”.”
Brendon, you are as fucking crazy as they come. Delusional too, but truly fucking crazy. You see, in the beginning of your post, you rant about how 90% of the worlds population can’t be wrong, because they are all religious, now you write them all of as being horrible wrong. And just as every religion always points out: you are right, everyone else is wrong, and god will punish and destroy those ignorant non believers, as well as those believers who believe a little differently than we do. Your relationship with your “living god” is nothing but a delusion. You are whore-shipping a ghost.
Brendon wrote: “I accept taking strong stands against propaganda in the classroom, but taking a stand and abusing someone for holding a different view is unacceptable and inappropriate.”
What the fuck is the difference you moron? Stay the FUCK away from our schools and universities. There is no place for dickheads like you and that fucking CULT arseholes there. You guys have your churches and your caves to do your ghost whore-shipping in. Atheists and scientist does not go and heckle ministers and cult leaders in their churches and their caves, when they are doing their whore-shipping and preaching and teaching propaganda. So it is only fair if you fuckers stay the fuck away from classrooms.
Brendon wrote: “I think a lot of things in the world just don’t make sense. Like why Mugabe holds on to power or why people hate God so much to even deny His existence. So yes religion is irrational.”
I am glad you show some signs of intelligent live there somewhere Brendon. Are you starting to think? Are you starting to question things? Good for you if you are. Anyway, people who question god’s existence don’t hate him. People who deny his existence can’t have him, because he does not exist to them. And as for arseholes like Mugabe who holds power, god has nothing to do with that, he does not exist. Wake up and smell the shit around you Brendon, you live in a godless world.
Comment by Mack Brolloks — May 19, 2008 @ 12:18 pm
Type-O
“People who deny his existence can’t have him, because he does not exist to them.”
Hate, not have,
People who deny his existence can’t hate him, because he does not exist to them.
Comment by Mack Brolloks — May 19, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
Brendon wrote: “Thankfully though, I’m not religious. I also hate religion, because in the name of religion, people kill, they spit at others, they do all sorts of horrible things.”
Wow, just wow. Since you say you hate religion, would you be willing to sign a petition to ban ALL religion from schools? After all, you mention some of the bad things that comes out of religion above and I am sure you would not want to expose your chidlren (or other people’s children) to such nonsense, such as religion? Right?
Comment by Renier — May 19, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
“A letter from Einstein to philosopher Eric Gutkind in 1954 should put an end to the whole “Einstein believed in God” blabber you hear from time to time. The letter, which is being auctioned off this week contains Einstein’s scathing words about God, religious belief, and Judaism.
Here are some excerpts:
‘The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.’
‘For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them.’
Not that any of it will really make a huge difference since we usually look to authority figures/idols for corroboration of our own ideas and doublethink any discrepancies that occur. But maybe it’ll stop Einstein’s words from being dragged through the mud each and every time these dumb science v. religion debates arise.”
From the CSW Blog.
But the fundies will take no notice of this. Einstein was religious if they want him to be religious for their arguments. Like Darwin repented on his death bed. All BS.
Comment by Savage — May 19, 2008 @ 1:12 pm
Savage wrote: “Like Darwin repented on his death bed. All BS.”
Noooo!!! You mean some Christians started a lie and some are still repeating the same lie? Nooo! Never, I could never believe that god’s chosen people would lie to make their god look good. God is allmighty, he does no need lies to cover for him.
Sarcasm aside. Darwin did not “repent” on his death bed. But the fools fail to ask themselves: What if he did? Would it make ANY difference to his theory? They can’t kill evolution from a science view because everytime we test it, it comes out tops. So, they tried to kill it by lies, that the man who’s observations lead him to evolution had to “repent”? Repent for what? Repent for having an idea and for observation? But oooh nooh, Darwin had to “repent”, ask forgiveness from the Christian god because of his observations. Freaky reasoning eh?
But fear not. Brendon will tell you that the lady who made up the story, who lied about Darwin “repenting” on his death bed is not a true(tm) Christian, because a true(tm) Christian would never lie in such a deliberate way. Now I wonder… if Brendon was to ask some of his fundie friends, how many would think that Darwin *did* repent on his death bed? And I wonder if Brendon would speak to his friends and rectify the lie, tell them the truth? I hope so. It would be a start in shedding light on all the lies, taking over the responsibility for truth that those nasty atheists are complaining about on the blogs. On the other hand, a person who believes the lie that T.Rex ate coconuts in the Garden of Eden might just “believe” that Darwin did “repent” on his death bed.
But now I am really curious. Be honest Brendon, did you hear and believe the story that Darwin repented on his death bed? I know I did when I was a fundie. And to my friggen shame I retold the lie to many people. After all, Christians would not lie to one another, would they? God would not allow his church to be built on lies, would he?
Comment by Renier — May 19, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
If the fundies were genuinely interested in giving “equal time” to evolution and creationism in schools as they so often claim, then the christian thing for them to do would be to start by giving such “equal time” to evolution in their own churches.
Does anyone see that happening?
Ever?
Comment by Con-Tester — May 19, 2008 @ 2:37 pm
Brendon (#43): “Thankfully though, I’m not religious. I also hate religion…”
Good to have you back, and even better to witness how you are maturing as a Christian. Feeling the need to disassociate yourself from organised religion is a sure indicator of a move towards sanity. Keep up the good work. But, on a more serious note, surely you are aware that religion is a system of belief based on faith, or one that involves the worship of some deity, and that Christianity is a religion? Even if you call the object of your codified faith “Abba”?
Comment by Oubaas — May 19, 2008 @ 3:48 pm
Hehe, wow *snigger* I am truely impressed at how thorough and well worded the bashing of this Brendon person was. I enjoyed reading the replies of Renier, Con-Tester and Savage. You guys are amazing, I aspire to one day have the knowledge you have, seeing as I am rather content with my rhetoric as it is. Alas, my varsity work and all such is keeping me from reading what I should be. Anyhows, the whole statement about Darwin repenting and refuting on his deathbed is a lie, I mean, not that there is any historical evidence of such an occurence, but think about it logically; This guys spent most of his life concocting, testing and writing his theory of evolution, he defended it against all odds, we sailed halfway around the fekking world with it. It was his life. I doubt that if anybody invested even half as much time into their work that they would go around bad-mouthing it. Also, a common misconception amongs the religious types is that theory means “without proof” this too is utter bullshit. A theory stems from a hypothesis, which is basically an idea, but through tests, counter-tests, counter-hypothesis’ and so forth, a very solid, factual base is formed, this is what the theory rests upon. So my dear christian friends, saying that evolution is “just a theory” with that condescending tone in your voice makes me want to smack you, because, whilst “just a theory” is valid, the condescending tone is not. We recently had an Australian doctor at the varsity who came to give a “seminar” on evolution vs. creation “science” *snigger*. The thing is that, this “seminar” was hosted by shofar, I guess you can all see where this is going. Not only was his speech HEAVILY biased towards creation “science” he twisted facts so that they served his purpose, he abused and mismatched snippets of speeches from other scientists, he perpetuated the LIE that Darwin repented, he insulted our education system, saying that we weren’t allowed to ask questions or the lecturer will tell us to shut up, he incited some form of self-righteous fury in the shofarians present, when an elderly gentleman stood up to just ask him a question about something that did not make sense, he was casually waved aside and asked to sit, ofcourse this was AFTER a shofar operative wrenched the microphone from his frail old hand. And it was after ALL this shit that we discovered this wanker to have his Ph.D in agriculture. Do you know how much evolution they cover in an agricultural Ph.D? About 2 months worth of “introductory” course. The rest is all on animal breeding and such. So by what right does a farmer think he can lecture us on evolution? I mean, I don’t go around telling him how to plant his fucking mielies. The sad part was that, those who didn’t have the scientific know-how or couldn’t think for themselves (as was the case with 90% of those present) were mightily impressed with this strange doctor who single-handedly broke evolution. Obviously I was rather vocal on my disgust at this man’s blatant lies, which drew a few concerned stares from other people. Heh, I even dressed up nicely, a shirt with a BIG pentagram on it.
As for what Brendan said “Thankfully I’m not religious etc”
You sound like one of those youth pastors, the one’s who get tatoo’s and play in a rock band. Because y’know, they’re cool like that and they want to show even the toughest of rebels that “god is cool, and he understands you”. Those people make me sick to my stomach. I mean ok, you want to indoctrinate everyone, you want to push those people who “haven’t made up their mind yet” towards the “light” fine. Well not really but whatever. But those people who purposefull move away from the “mainstream” for exactly those reasons, who want their quiet and who basically want to be left alone. Can’t you give them some fucking peace?
I personally view christians as weak. Ok that’s being unfair, I view religious people as weak, but specifically christians. Seeing as they feel the need to whine and bitch about everything. I mean, why pray for good fortune when you yourself can take the wheels of fortune and spin them to suit you? Why pray for good weather when it’s busy raining anyways? Why pray to a god who does not listen or care?
I can tell you why. Here I shall unveil my theory as to why so many people feel the need for a god. It is because people fear uncertainty. Uncertainty is that hesitation you feel before you enter a dark room, the cold sweat on your neck when you first meet the girl of your dreams. Uncertainty lives within all of us, yet some people, some brave souls see beyond uncertainty and there they see opportunity. Those who don’t see opportunity are doomed to become religious. Because they NEED god to explain all those things that they, or science (yet) can’t. When they walk into the dark room, they NEED god there to “tell” them that they are being protected. When they meet that girl, the NEED god there to “tell” them that it’s going to be a great date. It’s simple really. It’s like when you were a kid and you first learned to swim, your mom, or dad was at your side continuously saying “Don’t worry I’m here” that’s pretty much the effect that christians crave. I think I am done for now, my head hurts now. NO IT IS NOT A SIGN FROM GOD YOU FUCKTARTS!!!
One last thing, Brendan, quoting the bible on what atheistic people think, could you think of ANYthing more stupid to do? Honestly man, right then and there you should have realised that switching the computer off and going to bed would have been the best course of action.
Comment by Tiamat — May 19, 2008 @ 7:52 pm
Custody battle in Texas sect case
Custody hearings have begun in a case involving parents of 463 children taken from a polygamist sect in western Texas following allegations of sexual abuse.
The hearings will allow parents seeking to regain custody to make their case.
In April, officials raided a compound of the sect saying young girls were being forced into marriage and sex. The children were placed into foster care.
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has denied abuse and says it is being persecuted.
So far, 168 mothers and 69 fathers of the children have been identified - reflecting the polygamist practices of the sect - the Associated Press news agency reports.
More than 100 children have still not been matched with mothers
The hearings, in the town of San Angelo, are expected to take several weeks.
Differing details
AP says the case, which began with a raid on 3 April, has been marked by confusion.
Officials from the Texas children’s agency have said some women and children have given different names and lied about ages.
As many as two dozen of the girls held in custody - including some mothers - may be adults, AP reports.
Initially the authorities said that more than half of the underage girls removed from the ranch are either mothers or are pregnant.
The legal age of sexual consent in Texas is 17 and polygamy is illegal in the US.
The children were removed from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado after someone called a domestic abuse hotline claiming to be a pregnant 16-year-old abused by a much older husband.
The girl has never been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.
Earlier this month, investigators said they had found signs of physical injuries among the children, but added it was unclear whether these were due to abuse.
Members live in large extended families, making it hard to determine exact parenthood, and the state is using DNA tests in its investigation.
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) is an offshoot of the Mormon Church, from the mainstream Mormons more than a century ago.
FLDS members are taught that a man must marry at least three wives in order to ascend to heaven.
The church denies forcing young girls into polygamy.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/7409006.stm
Comment by McBrolloks — May 19, 2008 @ 9:14 pm
“The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has denied abuse and says it is being persecuted.”
Always persecuted!!!!!!!!!!!!
One of the 16 year old girls was pregnant with her 4th child.
Comment by McBrolloks — May 19, 2008 @ 9:16 pm
Texas sect girls ‘mostly mothers’
More than half of the teenage girls removed from a polygamist sect in Eldorado, Texas, are either mothers or currently pregnant, US officials say.
All 463 children on the Yearning For Zion Ranch were taken into care after allegations of sexual abuse prompted police to raid the ranch this month.
Officials from the sect deny that any children were abused at the ranch.
Authorities believe that of the 53 girls aged between 14 and 17, 29 are already mothers and two are pregnant.
“It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive,” said Darrell Azar, a spokesman for the Texas Child Protective Services.
‘Largest case’
Detectives raided the ranch after a 16-year-old girl called an abuse hotline saying she had been beaten and raped by her 50-year-old husband.
As a result of the raid, all children on the ranch aged between six months and 17 years of age were placed in emergency state custody.
Texas law states that if sexual abuse is happening in a home and a parent does not put a stop to it, then the parent can lose custody of the child.
The Yearning for Zion ranch belongs to a breakaway Mormon sect called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS).
Three wives
The sect is led by polygamist Warren Jeffs, who is currently in jail as an accomplice to rape after he forced a 14-year-old girl to marry her cousin.
The self-proclaimed prophet is currently awaiting trial in Arizona on charges of being an accomplice to four counts of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages.
The 10,000-strong sect, which dominates the towns of Colorado City in Arizona, and Hildale, Utah, split from the mainstream Mormon church more than a century ago.
Members believe a man must marry at least three wives in order to ascend to heaven.
Women are meanwhile taught that their path to heaven depends on being subservient to their husband.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/7372485.stm
Comment by McBrolloks — May 19, 2008 @ 9:26 pm
Renier wrote, “I know they are Christians”
Going to church and saying you’re a Christian doesn’t make a person a Christian.
Renier wrote, “Don’t excuse you holy book Brendon, as we discussed before, good can be taken from it yes, but so can the bad.”
Love your enemy is bad then? But then your favorite sport appears to be taking something out the of the context it was written in.
Renier wrote, “thay can go the science route and disprove it”
A work in progress… Funding anyone??
Renier wrote, “Your Bible contradicts you:” and quote some bible verses.
No it doesn’t read Matthew 5:38-44. Then read the contexts of the verses quoted. 2 John is in the context of false preachers of the Gospel. Many Christians take this verse and refuse JW’s into their homes, but I don’t believe that’s right. The instruction is having fellowship with the person. Quote from Wesley is instructive “Receive him not into your house - As either a teacher or a brother - Neither bid him God speed - Give him no encouragement therein.” Note the ‘as a teacher or brother…’
2 Corinthians is clearly talking about marriage. I doubt you’ll marry your enemy. I also believe it has reference to other areas, but seriously, would you go into business with an enemy? It’s clearly talking about enemies, the talk is of believers and unbelievers. Last I checked, unbelievers were not my enemy. Last I checked, I don’t think I have any enemies.
Renier wrote, “The catholics would NEVER dare to add a few pieces to the Bible, would they? ”
Actually they did.
Like ummmm what …. the apocrypha perhaps??? No they would never do such a thing
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 11:33 am
Con-tester wrote, “Even if they are, it doesn’t absolve them of having to provide evidence for their beliefs.”
Trouble is, no proof would be good enough for you.
Con-tester wrote, “And your bible is not evidence.”
Point is made. If you reject the Bible as evidence, then there is nothing more you will accept as evidence.
Con-tester wrote, “you’re forever a miserable sinner”
Forever??? Ummm… not true. One day I will be perfect. And I’ll be perfect for all eternity.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 11:39 am
Brendon Schafer wrote (#59 or thereabouts):
Not true. The evidence contained in these pages is good enough to convince me that believers will do just about anything to nurture their infantile religious delusions.
Brendon Schafer wrote (#59 or thereabouts):
Brendon Schafer, that’s just plain idiotic, even for a committed believer. The bible says nothing about, say, gravitational waves, yet they’ve been measured.
Brendon Schafer wrote (#59 or thereabouts):
… or, so you would hope. Maybe your god’s going to send you to that hot place because you chose to tell us lies about it.
Comment by Con-Tester — May 20, 2008 @ 11:57 am
Renier wrote, “Oh yeah, the classic “My PC is not! a computer” delusion.”
Religion is not the same thing as relationship. Check the difference in the same dictionary.
Renier wrote, “if 90% of the kids believed in Santa, then they must be right? Right? This is after all your own reasoning.”
Not what I was trying to say. I’m pointing out that people are inherently religious. There is something in our psyche that makes us religious - whatever that religion is - your religion is a religion of self and or nature.
Renier wrote, “I must admit you just shocked the crap out of me.”
I’m hoping to shock the hell out of you really
Renier wrote, “then why the do you still wonder at people rejecting all the irrational stuff? It’s hard to believe irrational stuff. ”
Why? Because God has done a work in me that I cannot explain in other way. It’s called new life. It’s called being born again. It’s a spiritual thing that usually displays to the world by the fruit of what I do.
Renier wrote, “But no, now that they were caught at being naughty (if it is true) they are no longer True Christians(tm)”
Ummm…. Individuals who claim to be Christians and who apparently attend a particular congregation and do stuff they shouldn’t doesn’t make the preacher or the congregation false teachers. It places a question on the individuals. “You shall know them by their fruit. If the fruit is bad etc…”
Renier wrote, “We just call it “voices in your head” to be clear about what we think it is.”
That’s the point. You only think you know what it is, but you have no idea. You stay in ignorance as long as you reject the Bible and Jesus Christ as Saviour.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 12:08 pm
Brendon wrote: “Like ummmm what …. the apocrypha perhaps???”
No Brendon, go check up even on the , what are thay called,… Afrikaans: “Kanonieke boeke”
Consider as well that for many years the Catholics were “keeprs” of the New Testament books in your Bible, nobody else. You think they did not tamper with it? Classic example outside of the Bible is the Josephus story. Catholic version very very different from the one that the Arabs kept. So why would they not change other “bible” books?
Brendon: “Going to church and saying you’re a Christian doesn’t make a person a Christian.”
You think this is the case with the Shofar thugs who spat at the professor? You think they don’t also claim to have a “relationship” with your dear friend Jesus?
Brendon wrote: “A work in progress… Funding anyone??”
What work? What science are they doing? Funding? Why, sorry I missed it, the Churches here on earth all so poor, so very very poor, please send Jesus more money. But wait, they build multi-million doller “creation science” museums and yet offer no science. They had 6000 years to come up with some concrete proof and now all of a sudden they complain they have no funding. Benny Hinn has his own private jet, but there is no funding. Religion is a multi-billion doller industry, tax exempt, and they have no funding. What, is God broke or something? Has God run out of ideas to help his children debate the nasty atheists and therefore cannot think of any idea that would provide proof that he did something. Anything, in fact. Funding. What a lame excuse.
Brendon wrote: “Love your enemy is bad then? But then your favorite sport appears to be taking something out the of the context it was written in.”
Who said love your enemy is bad? Context? The Isrealites loved their enemies (even boy babies) so much that they brutally slaughtered them and took all the virgins for their own pleasure. All this on God’s command according to the Bible. Love your enemies? Your god needs to start practicing what he preaches. Oh, and if that is “love” then please don’t love me…
Brendon wrote: “Then read the contexts of the verses quoted. 2 John is in the context of false preachers of the Gospel.”
Cool, so them nasty atheists are excused and this verse only applies to fellow Christians, or then, people who interpret the Bible in a different way than you do? Perhaps I was out of context. Let’s have a look.
Brendon wrote: “Quote from Wesley is instructive”
Does this Wesley have a stamped certificate indicating he is god’s chosen spokesman on earth? If not, why should I pay any attention to his *interpretation* of the Bible? And as I said many times, why should I believe *your* interpretation of the Bible Brendon? You got a stamped certificate perhaps?
Brendon wrote: “Many Christians take this verse and refuse JW’s into their homes, but I don’t believe that’s right.”
Well, the JW are “false teachers” in your view, are they not? So why do you get a free pass to disobey the word of god? Or is it the “context” trick again?
Brendon wrote: “2 Corinthians is clearly talking about marriage. I doubt you’ll marry your enemy. I also believe it has reference to other areas, but seriously, would you go into business with an enemy? It’s clearly talking about enemies, the talk is of believers and unbelievers. Last I checked, unbelievers were not my enemy. Last I checked, I don’t think I have any enemies.”
Don’t marry an enemy. Oh my, what glorious revelation in the Bible! Praise Jeebus, I never FKN guessed it! Either you are smoking something or I am loosing my mind trying to make sense of this. 2 Corinthians is talking about marriage, ok. So it’s about not marrying your enemy. What does the verse say about the enemy? “And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?” Infidel? Don’t marry an infidel! So Brendon, if this verse is about not marrying the enemy, and it gives the example of infidel (unbeliever), then by your logic you should have enemies, the infidels, yet you deny the meaning of the verse and claim you have no enemies. You are a friggen master of selective interpretation! Keep it up and you will be a moderate soon, then I’ll leave you alone when the 6000 year old universe lunacy no longer taints your “interpretation”.
Just to rub it in and make sure you understand what I am trying to say. Look at what you wrote and then look at what you wrote shortly after.
Brendon wrote: ” It’s clearly talking about enemies, the talk is of believers and unbelievers.”
and then
Brendon wrote; “Last I checked, unbelievers were not my enemy. Last I checked, I don’t think I have any enemies.”
You contradict yourself. Not too bad though. The Bible is much worse and therefore your confusion migh be excused.
If the talk is about enemies and giving unbelievers as an example then how can you claim unbelievers are *not* your enemy? Do you just ignore the verses (or re-interpret them) when it does not suit your world view?
But since you accused me of “out of context” with this: “But then your favorite sport appears to be taking something out the of the context it was written in.”
Let’s see. Christians are to be assholes (neither bid them godspeed or you will share in their evil blah blah blah) to other Christians that has a different doctrine, but they can be friendly to unbelievers. But unbelievers are enemies! Infidels! Not just enemies, they are evil, according to the Bible: “Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” Evil heart…
Here is the verse again: “2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: (1:11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
The words, “and bring not this doctrine” is fairly simple to me. A different doctrine. What about a view that the doctrine is false? That is a different “doctrine” after all. Would anti-doctrine be better and therefore this verse would not apply to atheists? Somehow I really think this verse applies to people with an anti-doctrine too, don’t you think?
Apart from the verse that says this: “1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”
Anyone (like me) who denies that Jesus is the Christ/god/son of god is an antichrist, according to this verse. But your “context” means “and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, ” is not valid for antichrists, like me, since it is “just” dealing with ,uhm, false prophets with a different doctrine than yours, right? Sorry dude, I think the “context” stands.
Comment by Renier — May 20, 2008 @ 12:36 pm
Mack Blollocks wrote, “Maybe he is a discriminating sexist? Maybe he was invented by discriminating sexists? Not to mention delusional and ignorant.”
Or maybe He created humans in His image and made them Male and Female. Ever consider that he isn’t human, but Spirit. Ever consider He isn’t sexual, but created two sexes to more fully display His attributes? I know. You immediately think of sex, when I’m not talking physical attributes. eg. Mother’s are nurturers, father disciplinarians and many other differences.
Mack Brollocks wrote “beep, beep, beep”
Sorry. Not gonna read that drivel, but I’m glad your conscience is still alive. Do something about that God-given conscience before its too late.
Mack Brollocks wrote, “Wake up and smell the shit around you Brendon, you live in a godless world.”
So. Mack, what you are saying is that there is no justice. People live in fear of their lives by a tyrant they get to the end of their lives and well… nothing? You are cursing people by your godless society. I’m truly glad that what happens is Zim somehow has meaning and that Bob will give an account one day for what he is doing in that country and justice will one day be seen to be done. I’m also glad that every single rapist, murderer and thief will be found out one day even if not in this lifetime. Your life is meaningless and incredibly sad.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 12:39 pm
Renier wrote, “Since you say you hate religion, would you be willing to sign a petition to ban ALL religion from schools?”
Never. Why do you, who has the freedom to dis religion, not want people to have the freedom to practice religion. Your double standards are clear - not to mention vial.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 12:43 pm
Renier wrote, “But now I am really curious. Be honest Brendon, did you hear and believe the story that Darwin repented on his death bed? ”
Actually I believe it’s a lie. I think the lady was his wife, if memory serves correctly. I also think she was a devout Christian who may have wanted CD to have a Christian burial. But we really wont know the truth, will we? Well until judgement day at least.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 12:48 pm
Brandon wrote
Renier wrote, “We just call it “voices in your head” to be clear about what we think it is.”
That’s the point. You only think you know what it is, but you have no idea. You stay in ignorance as long as you reject the Bible and Jesus Christ as Saviour.
But in the same instance, how the hell do you know that it’s god or that jesus thing speaking to you? Most schizophrenics aren’t aware that the voices in their head are imaginary.
About the whole, “I hate religion, it’s more of a relationship” bullshit. Your “relationship”
with this ’so-called’ god phenomena is based on faith, and what is religion based on? Faith, exactly, therefore your relationship IS your religion. Don’t come with this BS about being different and open-minded just because you do not adhere to this “religion” thing.
Brendan wrote
Renier wrote, “I must admit you just shocked the crap out of me.”
I’m hoping to shock the hell out of you really
C’mon, that was just infantile.
Brendan wrote
I’m pointing out that people are inherently religious. There is something in our psyche that makes us religious - whatever that religion is - your religion is a religion of self and or nature.
Bullshit, you ought to replace religious with superstitious. But people are definately NOT inherently religious. Your first thought as a new born would sure as hell not have been “YAY GOD”. It is only as you grow and and go to school, church and all that stuff that you are gradually exposed to religion and either choose to believe or not. People will always have a modicum of inherent superstition, but to say that you are born with (which is what inherent basically denotes) religious feelings is false.
Brendan wrote something about being perfect. Honestly man. Why would you want to be perfect? As far as I know the bible taught something about only god being perfect, does that mean you aspire to be god? That’s blasphemous that is young man.
Brendan wrote
Renier wrote, “thay can go the science route and disprove it”
A work in progress… Funding anyone??
Just ask the fucking church man. Or ANY other religious institution. They are coining it year in and year out. Religious institutions are TAX EXEMPT. The Vatican city alone is sitting on over 50 BILLION Dollar’s worth of cash. They have a deal with Toyota which gets them free cars. Ofcourse, asking the church for money for SCIENTIFIC research would only make sense if they were interested in such. A few years ago, Bill Gates sponsored over 160 million dollars for AIDS research and relief in South Africa. To my knowledge the church has done fuckall to prevent AIDS, oh yeah, apart from their laughable ABC strategy, ABSTAIN, BE faithful and that C? do you think it stands for CONDOMISE? Hell no, it stands for. . . *cue drumroll* CHRISTIANISE!! Hell the catholic church even expressely FORBIDS the use of condoms. And seeing as most of the new world (Africa, South America, Asia) was colonised by catholics, most of those people are catholics. See where this is going? I’ll admit that some blame lies with outdated tribal traditions and such though.
Comment by Tiamat — May 20, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
Brendan wrote
Renier wrote, “Since you say you hate religion, would you be willing to sign a petition to ban ALL religion from schools?”
Never. Why do you, who has the freedom to dis religion, not want people to have the freedom to practice religion. Your double standards are clear - not to mention vial.
Practising religion is good and all, it’s even protected by the constitution. BUT, when it comes to only ONE religion being taught at a school, and all the children being made to sit through that retarded drivel, that’s where the issue lies. So, no double standards from Renier there young man. Also, it’s spelled VILE not vial and THIS not dis. You’re not Jaimaican.
Comment by Tiamat — May 20, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
Con-tester wrote, “If the fundies were genuinely interested in giving “equal time” to evolution and creationism in schools as they so often claim”
Actually I understand that many Christian home schooling curricula do give equal time to both. Or at least present both views.
Con-tester wrote, “then the christian thing for them to do would be to start by giving such “equal time” to evolution in their own churches.”
Now why on earth would we do that? The plain teaching of the Bible is that man is a sinner condemned by God, but God reaching down to save otherwise condemned sinners. It has very little to say about science (in proportion). But thanks. You finally admit that creationism is a science then?
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 1:00 pm
Tiamat wrote, “One last thing, Brendan, quoting the bible on what atheistic people think, could you think of ANYthing more stupid to do? ”
I agree with your sentiments on youth pastors with tattoos. They’re about as annoying as youth pastors with ear rings.
Quoting the Bible? Actually, I couldn’t think of anything more appropriate. Especially in the light of Hebrews 4:12.
Here’s another “Fool says in his heart there is no God” Psalm 14:1. And another “If anyone says he is without sin he is a liar, but if we confess our sin God is faithful and just to forgive us our sin…” paraphrased from 1 John 1:8-9.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
Brendon Schafer wrote (#68 or thereabouts):
You understand wrong. At best, such curricula present a caricature of evolution: “Ever seen a lizard turn into a bird? No? There you go, see how silly evolutionists are!”
Brendon Schafer wrote (#68 or thereabouts):
As a show of good christian principles that you are serious about giving “equal time” to the alternatives. Your church no doubt raises humanity’s supposedly divinely ordained origins more than occasionally. Why should parishioners be deprived of considering alternative explanations? After all, your god gave them free will (and the promise of a sound roasting should they demur) to decide for themselves.
Brendon Schafer wrote (#68 or thereabouts):
So why would you want to supplant legitimate science with it?
Brendon Schafer wrote (#68 or thereabouts):
Not at all. I was merely drawing attention to the deep-seated hypocrisy inherent in the way “equal time” is invariably punted.
Comment by Con-Tester — May 20, 2008 @ 1:33 pm
Renier wrote, “Does this Wesley have a stamped certificate indicating he is god’s chosen spokesman on earth? If not, why should I pay any attention to his *interpretation* of the Bible? And as I said many times, why should I believe *your* interpretation of the Bible Brendon? You got a stamped certificate perhaps?”
Try John Wesley. Founder of the Methodist Church. Actually the good thing about interpreting the Bible, is that you can check back on how others throughout the centuries have interpreted it. I think I’m in good company.
Renier wrote, “Just to rub it in and make sure you understand what I am trying to say. Look at what you wrote and then look at what you wrote shortly after.
Brendon wrote: ” It’s clearly talking about enemies, the talk is of believers and unbelievers.”
and then
Brendon wrote; “Last I checked, unbelievers were not my enemy. Last I checked, I don’t think I have any enemies.””
Sorry. I’m fallible. Trying to type to quickly or whatever and not checking. The text is not talking about personal enemies. It is talking of relationships with unbelievers (God’s enemies).
Renier wrote, “Anyone (like me) who denies that Jesus is the Christ/god/son of god is an antichrist, according to this verse. But your “context” means “and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, ” is not valid for antichrists, like me, since it is “just” dealing with ,uhm, false prophets with a different doctrine than yours, right? Sorry dude, I think the “context” stands.”
Context? Try the context in which 2 John was written. There were preachers walking around at the time preaching a false gospel swindling money out of well meaning persons. These people would typically stay at someone’s house for a period of time and wouldn’t contribute to the food they would eat etc. In short, they were parasites. Given in that context these people were preaching doctrines contrary to what the apostles (and later disciples) were teaching. I think that what John wrote in that context, namely of not having fellowship these people or inviting them into your home stands. It doesn’t instruct me today to ignore JW’s and others that may knock on my door. However, if a person claims to be a brother, then distorts the message of the gospel (especially one of the primarily important doctrines) then I would need to do as instructed by that letter.
BTW. I don’t consider you an anti-christ. Just an atheist who must bow his knee to King Jesus one day. It’s one thing to claim to be a Christian - then preach a false gospel (an anti-christ). It’s another to be a complete pagan (or an atheist) who needs to hear the gospel.
Comment by Brendon Schafer — May 20, 2008 @ 2:31 pm
Brendon wrote: “BTW. I don’t consider you an anti-christ. Just an atheist who must bow his knee to King Jesus one day.”
Well, if king jesus is all the bible tells us, this is how Henry Louis Mencken reasons: “If I have been wrong in my agnosticism, when I die I’ll walk up to God in a manly way and say, &